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Abortion. Church VS. State
Posted on: Thu, 2006-09-07 23:42
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Abortion. Church VS. State
So this topic was brought up during another thread. Rational Squad Alerts |
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Honestly the church should have nothing to do with abortion there just trying to stop the evolutionary process. They dont want use to move on in science
I think it's terrible. Just, terrible. I used to be fine with religion, I didn't believe myself but w/e, let people believe what they want. However, things like this, the church threatening doctors and redicuolous anti-abortion law made me realize that religion is dangerous.
"We now know that the human animal is characterized by two great fears that other animals are protected from: the fear of life and the fear of death..."
-Ernest Becker
lol religion not dangersous? the crusades is all i have to say about that.
But on abortion....
I think that you should not be giving a few months to think about if you want one or not. Personaly if i was going to have a child i would know instantly if i was going to make a good parent or not and with that thought i would know if i should get an abortion. If you know you are going to make a crappy parent then you shouldnt have a kid plain and simple. If you can visblly see that you are pregnant than you should have the kid. Only under extreme circum stances should anything past 2 month be allow in my opinion. It shouldnt take 2 months for you to wake up and me like "hey i think i want an abortion".
Yeah I agree.
I think abortion should be the last option type thing. Mainly for Rape circumstances.
In every other situation, I think adoption sohuld replace abortion. But then comes the problem of overpopulated foster homes and the child growing up in a not so decent enviroment/home. So it's kind of a lose/lose situation
Abortion should be available to people under the right situation.
Personally I think abortion should be available for all situations. The Earth is overpopulated as is, theres no reason to bring in unwanted children into the world.
"We now know that the human animal is characterized by two great fears that other animals are protected from: the fear of life and the fear of death..."
-Ernest Becker
By all I mean before like... 4 months
"We now know that the human animal is characterized by two great fears that other animals are protected from: the fear of life and the fear of death..."
-Ernest Becker
You know what saying pisses me off about the Abortion situation in the case of rape?
[b]"DON'T PUNISH ME BECAUSE OF WHAT SOME NASTY MAN DID TO YOU MOMMY. IT'S NOT MY FAULT"[/b]
I see it all the time on this stupid bulletins above a aborted fetus picture.
[quote=blood pig]You know what saying pisses me off about the Abortion situation in the case of rape?
[b]"DON'T PUNISH ME BECAUSE OF WHAT SOME NASTY MAN DID TO YOU MOMMY. IT'S NOT MY FAULT"[/b]
I see it all the time on this stupid bulletins above a aborted fetus picture.[/quote]
Those kinds of bulletins just make me want to throw up.
"We now know that the human animal is characterized by two great fears that other animals are protected from: the fear of life and the fear of death..."
-Ernest Becker
No lets just punish society to pay for that kid so he can eat, go to school, college and live off of well fair. because you know that kid is most likely going to be born into a slum and get free shit from the government his whole life.
But than there are people like my friend mike. He is a poor smart white kid that lives with his dad, parents are divorced. He got accepted to college but can just barely make it by going. He got a 29 on his ACT and he cant go to the college he want because the government wont give him money!
Ok im done ranting.
I know! They're disgusting! All they do is shock the living shit out of you and make you want to puke. They're doing more harm then they are good.
Damn it bryan we did it again. My post was meant towards Ph8 lol.
lol this is starting to bring back my rant on abortion protesters
Go for it :) that's another reason I decided to make this.
The whole abortion thing is so dumb. Right now second trimester is the legal limit, thats 6 months about. Ok now honestly thing about it if it takes you that long to think about getting one than you should diserve to get one. I think you should get 3 weeks to figure it out and thats it. I know this is harsh but really its not that hard of a choice its either your going to be a good parent or a bad one and there is your choice. Stupid ass people.
Also i hate abortion protesters. They are the most vial and low scum of the earth. They show, publicly mind you, pictures of dead babies and diseased women. It is unmoral and down right disgusting. I dont know why the police dont stop them. I have never had the chance but if i was around to see an abortion rally the crazy side of me would get out and i would start destroying the signs and posters. Im understand the right to protest but nothing gives you the right to show a 6ft poster of a dead baby. People need to understand the diffrence between moral and stupid.
This is a rewrite, so it'll be brief... accidentally closed the window.
I believe abortion should be legal in the first 2 trimesters(brain activity starts after approx 25 weeks). However, I agree that you should basically know if you need one or not.
Secondly, I think there should be some limit on the number of abortions you can receive, because there's a point where personal responsibility ought kick in.
Thirdly, I think that in cases of rape and incest, it should always be legal(in the first 2 trimesters)
Personally, I disagree vehemently with abortion, but... that has more to do with my own personal actions(I would never be in that situation in the first place).
-There is no sin save faith
Well i know after like 2 or 3 abortions your reporductive organs are pretty much killed. So after so many, depending on the type of abortion, it wont matter anymore.
I used to be in a band and our drummer's mom was a SUPER conservative born again Christian and on the fridge there were ALWAYS pictures of bloody, aborted fetus'. If you think about it, she's looking at that shit everytime she eats a meal which is gross.
I hate the adds that are like, "Terrorism has killed 4,000 Americans since 19xx. Abortion has killed 4,000 Americans since yesterday."
Completely different situations...
"I hate the adds that are like, "Terrorism has killed 4,000 Americans since 19xx. Abortion has killed 4,000 Americans since yesterday."
not only is that a diffrent situation but it doesnt make any sense.
Abortion...
I'll just quote what I have said on another forum, it doesn't really reflect anyones views here.
"When I am arguing I am make the assumption that you want to make. That being human life starts an conception. In the past I thought it was clear cut somewhere. Guess what I learned that its not, so I don't debate it anymore.
As I asked, does someone have the right to live off someone else that does not want that person to burden them?
My argument is that even if the fetus is human it can not feed off another human if that human doesn't want it to, even if the fetus were to die."
The guy ignores this argument over and over again...
Any law that forces a woman to put up with the pain of child birth when she doesn't want to is a law of torture, and anyone who endorses such a law is a very sick, and very twisted person.
Fetus' don't think or feel. They aren't human. I don't care what those idiot theists "believe," the "Separation of Church and State" law is there for a reason. Just because you want it to be true, doesn't make it true. Until they can PROVE the soul is there, they need to shut the fuck up and die.
There's nothing wrong with first and second trimester abortion.
"I think there should be some limit on the number of abortions you can receive, because there's a point where personal responsibility ought kick in."
So, because YOU think it's irresponsible, you think it should be illegal. Some people think riding skateboards is irresponsible. So, I guess that should be illegal too, huh?
Sorry Jack, this isn't your Nazi America. This is the land of the free. People can be irresponsible if they want. NOTHING should be illegal if it doesn't hurt anyone else or impede on the rights of anyone else.
Truthyness?
Indeed.
whats the worst they could do? threaten them with hell? I for one am for abortion. just simply because if they dont want the baby, they could hire a fellow to beat her stomach and kill it that way, there is no way in preventing it, so why fight it?
I am pro-choice. However I would never ever have one. But the church should have no say whatsoever in that choice.
I hear some people think its ok to make to women have the kid and then she can put it up for adoption. I have stated my opinion about the topic up there, but I was wonder what you guys think about that argument.
Personally if I got pregnant. I would want to keep the child alive, even if I didn't plan of keeping it. But I think that if the woman doesn't want the child, I would prefer adoption, but untimatly, if she wants an abortion, that should be her choice.
"I hear some people think its ok to make to women have the kid and then she can put it up for adoption. I have stated my opinion about the topic up there, but I was wonder what you guys think about that argument."
Torture.
I think it isnt alright, you dont force people to do something. if i cant force people to jump in a fire pit than they cant force women to do that
[quote=Voiderest]I hear some people think its ok to make to women have the kid and then she can put it up for adoption. I have stated my opinion about the topic up there, but I was wonder what you guys think about that argument.[/quote]
I too said the same above.
I mean why not?
But then like I also said above, the problem of over-populated foster homes arises and the kid could grow up in a shitty enviroment and stuff. Lose/lose situation in some cases?
What gives the chruch the right to decide what women want? If a woman wants an abortion, its her choice, not God's, the priest down the street, or the phsyco Witness.
I only agree with abotions if you have been raped. Theres so many women out there that cant have kids and people are just killing them. Give them to familys that need and try so hard to have a baby of there own. I think its bull shit too that people cant take care of there kids if you have sex you should know if you cant or can take care of it. Theres so many programs out there to help you and your baby stay on there feet. I dont see why any one has to give up there kid. Thats my oppion tho =D
I think that it should be legal. Period. But i also agree that there should be a limit on how many times you can get one (not counting rape/inscest)
I think that, Even though the process looks sickening, it should still be legal. Simply because if someone didnt want a baby and couldnt get an abortion they could very easily just kill it themselves. but hmm... one of my friends was pregnant a while ago, but they took some sort of pill that did something to the baby and killed it. (Dissolved it!?!?!?!, not sure) anyone know what that is?
[quote=Nick_Poling] People can be irresponsible if they want. NOTHING should be illegal if it doesn't hurt anyone else or impede on the rights of anyone else.[/quote]
You have to admit, abortion hurts someone. Murder kind of impedes on a child's choice to live. And murder does hurt the child. Never will that baby be given the chance to see the light of day, never will it have to opportunity to live out its destiny. How can this be justified?
~Living 4 Him with No Regrets
[quote=Live2Love333]
You have to admit, abortion hurts someone. Murder kind of impedes on a child's choice to live. And murder does hurt the child. Never will that baby be given the chance to see the light of day, never will it have to opportunity to live out its destiny. How can this be justified?
~Living 4 Him with No Regrets
[/quote]
I'd like to hear your justification to the 50,000 women that die each year (as estimated by the World Health Organization) and countless others who have complications around the world due to illigal abortion operations committed either by themselves or by improperly licenced practicioners. These arent just unfeeling lumps of cells mind you- these are grown women with memories, thoughts, hopes, fears, dreams, and sometimes families.
Thankyou for proving my point. Abortion is hurting people. Women have not only physical complications, but emotional ones that no one ever wants to talk about. Yes, these women have feelings and so do the unborn children in their wombs.
[quote=Live2Love333]Thankyou for proving my point. Abortion is hurting people. Women have not only physical complications, but emotional ones that no one ever wants to talk about. Yes, these women have feelings and so do the unborn children in their wombs.[/quote]
You completely missed the point. 50,000 women are dying and having medical complications because of [i]illigal[/i] abortions in other countries. Not the legal ones that happen in the west that are perfectly safe and sanitory and dont bring money to unauthorized quacks. Women are drying and suffering because of people [i]you[/i] who think that [i]your[/i] book based on [i]your[/i] interpretation by which [i]you[/i] think concerns the issues of abortion nineteen hundred years before the first operations were carried through, and it is people like [i]you[/i] who are responsible in other countries by depriving the women of their right to control their own bodies and not be dominated by Bronze Age dogma. While at the same time there have been medical studies that have shown that women do not have medical side effects from abortions at all. Neither do fetuses feel anything until the first few weeks of pregnancy where only there abortion is legal.
Is that a per year number? Because that is a lot.
If they have emotional side effects, where are the self- reports? Can we have numbers? Is this any more than average? If it is true they feel bad on the inside afterwards, then we should develop scientific hypothesis about it. Is it because of the physical process? Does the operation itself cause emotional harm? Is it because they are haranged by people like you, who are telling them they are going to hell for killing people? That, over time, would cause depression. Think! Proof is not for atheists only.
Actually I was a bit off, according to the World Health Organization the number of total deaths to unsafe and illegal abortions is at 67,900 a year for the year 2000:
http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/unsafe_abortion_estimates_04/estimates.pdf
I never condemned anyone to hell. Please don't put words in my mouth. God is a God of love not condemnation. Abortion is wrong because it is murder, plain and simple, but God will forgive those who have done it if they are truly repentant.
Sorry for that mix- up. I now no longer mean people like you, but there are people who have the belief that people are doing something inherently wrong and their invisible man will hurt the person who got the abortion forever. That is what I have heard, at least.
I am sorry that a Christian said that.
~Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
~Philippians 2:3
Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
I don't want to bludgeon you with this, but people aren't getting tricked into abortions. They know what they are doing.
The thing with dogma is that it has a tendancy to avoid nuance. You cannot accept that people make these choices for complicated reasons. They have no reason to say sorry if what they did was reasonable. So why bother them about it? Why not inspect the nuance, logically approach individual cases? There are cases where people did the right thing, even if the action is not advisable for most people. Killing, for instance, although not advisable in most cases, is the best of two evils when defending one's self.
Also, you failed to answer any of my earlier questions, and those are more important. A rational argument should accompany any reply, as you lack one currently.
[quote=Live2Love333]I never condemned anyone to hell. Please don't put words in my mouth. God is a God of love not condemnation. Abortion is wrong because it is murder, plain and simple, but God will forgive those who have done it if they are truly repentant.[/quote]
For one thing, nothing is plain or simple, your black and whitness is astounding. But here's the point- making abortion illegal is genocide and cruelty to the millions of innocent women who have the right to control their bodies.
[quote=Whitecrow]For one thing, nothing is plain or simple, your black and whitness is astounding.[/quote]
Something a lot of people forget, when dealing with Legal/Illegal, you often have to break things up into black and white. You can use the grey areas to determine which to choose, but eventually it has o be legal or illegal, not semilegal, unless you want to put all sorts of regulations on it, which wouldn't clarify any issues as much as it would muddy them up.
[quote=Live2Love333]I never condemned anyone to hell. Please don't put words in my mouth. God is a God of love not condemnation. Abortion is wrong because it is murder, plain and simple, but God will forgive those who have done it if they are truly repentant.[/quote]
So what if a woman of stable mind is with child and finds out that if she goes through with the carrying and birthing of her child, she'll die?
Is that still murder to you?
Is it a sin for a woman to save her life by getting an abortion?
Certainly losing one life that hasn't even started is better than losing the life of an established person with a name, a family, friends, ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and feelings AND an unborn fetus.
Also, what if the woman was raped and was completely unprepared to raise a child (Say, if she was raped when she was in her early teens)? Do you REALLY believe that the person who is raped should feel further shamed by a child at such an early age?
I don't agree with abortion for birth control reasons. I believe if you decide to have sex and you get numerous abortions because of it, you are causing a lot of harm on your body. You should find a better way to NOT get pregnant instead of constantly ridding yourself of pregnancy, but for the reasons that could actually save a woman's life, in the psychological sense and the physical sense, it should be legal and accepted. No one should have to carry a child with the possibility of killing theirself in the process or if they aren't stable enough to raise it.
That IS torture.
[quote=Live2Love333]Abortion is wrong because it is murder, plain and simple...[/quote]
If you invite someone into your house and they suddenly start attacking you, you have just as much right to kill them in self-defense as you do if you invited a fetus into you, and then it starts hurting you and you can't stop it. Except they don't use shotguns to cause abortions, to my knowledge. Which is a good thing.
[quote=UltraWill][quote=Whitecrow]For one thing, nothing is plain or simple, your black and whitness is astounding.[/quote]
Something a lot of people forget, when dealing with Legal/Illegal, you often have to break things up into black and white. You can use the grey areas to determine which to choose, but eventually it has o be legal or illegal, not semilegal, unless you want to put all sorts of regulations on it, which wouldn't clarify any issues as much as it would muddy them up.[/quote]
The statement was not dealing with legal or illegal it was dealing with right or wrong which does have gray areas which I wont get into just now because it is off-topic.
Props to last three comments. All I can add is, if anyone has studied the details of Trespass/ Nuisance Law, where, even though they are nearly identical in some cases, things like laws that protect farmers from nuisance crimes MAY only apply to nuisance crimes and not trespass (technically it is a tort, but whatever). That would be a legal gray area. Or so I hear.