A dictatorship is where some one person dictates the rules.

Communism has nothing, per se, to do with who is in the government.

Trying to equate them is a stretch, at best. But there are some communist dictators. The terms are independent of each other.

Not this discussion again...

Communism, though its intentions may be honorable, is a fundamentally flawed system. It is incapable of sustaining itself while simultaniously preserving the classless equality it strives to present.

[quote=lilangelofterror][quote=Guruite]
I personally think that Jesus would be my canidate... yes people would be religious and killing would have gone on. However he is (one of) the causes of the dark ages (we were doing Ok with the pagan Gods)
[/quote]

Oh yeah... Jesus is so evil... telling us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves... gosh such evil that needs to be erased! Hehehe!

Terror
[/quote]

(Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." according to Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-2)

So, Jesus thinks that children who curse their parents should be killed. :D

[b]Matthew 15:4 [/b]
[i]-For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.[/i]

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes, because it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire."

[b]Matthew 18:8[/b]
[i]-Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.[/i]

[b]Matthew 18:9[/b]
[i]-And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. [/i]

[b]Matthew 25:46 [/b]
[i]-And these shall go away into everlasting punishment[/i]

Once again, Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell.

[b]Mark 9:43[/b]
[i]-And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:[/i]
[b]9:44[/b][i] -Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/i]
[b]9:45[/b] [i]-And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:[/i]
[b]9:46[/b] [i]-Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.[/i]
[b]9:47[/b] [i]-And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:[/i]
[b]9:48[/b][i] -Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.[/i]

Well then, do [i]you[/i] get to decide what's a hyperbole and what's not? Why didn't god show us a clear path as to what parts of scripture are a hyperbole or not?
If the bible is god's word, why didn't god make it clear for all of us?
Why does your all-powerful and all-knowing god need to rely on apologists and theologians to clarify his word?

God made them that way.

[quote=lilangelofterror]Same thing we do in everyday lanuage... for example:

"I'm so hungary I can eat a horse. I'm going to have lunch now."

Can you find what part is a hyperbole and what isn't?[/quote]

Please, of course I understand what hyperboles are. I'm just wondering why does your god need to rely on [i]you[/i] to interpret his word?

Maybe the entire resurrection part was a hyperbole also...how do you know the part about Jesus rising from the dead was to be taken literally?

[quote]So you want God to do all of your work for you? Are you next going to cry because God does not get you dressed and feed your breakfest in the morning? Know anything about question begging...[/quote]

That's different. Here we are talking about god's supposed word, which he should have made everything clear and easy to understand for [i]all[/i] of us, not just you.

[quote]I find it pretty easy to understand (along with people for hundereds of years) what is your problem?[/quote]

You probably weren't reading it with common sense then. If you did, you would be an atheist.

As for your "along with people for hundreds of years" comment, that's Argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy.

[quote]Is all you have a begged question?[/quote]

How is it a begged question?

[quote]I can read the bible without a commentary and find the metaphorical lanuage and seperate it from the literal. What is your problem? You don't want to do your homework and you think God should do all the work for you? Gosh... I guess teens in our society are lazy...

Terror[/quote]

So you blame me for your god's problems? It's his problem since it's supposed to be his word; he doesn't need you to tell me which are to be taken literally and which are not. Make sense?

Maybe your god is the one who's lazy...

[quote=lilangelofterror][quote=American Atheist]God made them that way.[/quote]

Translation: "I'm too lazy to do my homework, so I'm going to cry and find all kinds of excuses so I can contuine to be lazy."

Thanks so much for being truthful about why you don't want to be a Christian. Now are you going to answer me now or latter?

Terror
[/quote]

I WAS a christian. I just didn't want to worship some god with a self-esteem problem.

And I'll answer in just a little bit, I'm still typing the response, be patient. It's almost as if you have a minor case of ADHD or something.

[quote=lilangelofterror]Can you give a reason why he shouldn't? I'll be waiting for an answer now...[/quote]

I think that qualifies as Argumentum ad Ignoratium.

[quote]Are you really that ignorant and so desprate to find excuse you'll make up anything? I'm sorry... that isn't an answer to anything... but hey... creating a False Dilemma is far eaiser than answering questions...[/quote]

Please stop projecting your flaws on me.

[quote]Yep... still crying and no answers. Why is it that I and millions of others find it clear and easy to understand, but you don't? Still begging the question I see... hehehe![/quote]

Argumentum ad populum again. I can also use the same fallacy and ask, what about those who read the bible and weren't converted?

[quote]Hahahahaha! So the translation is... If you disagree with me... you are just a brainwashed Christian who is too stupid to understand. Gosh... I see now you need to make up excuses to cover for your own extreme ignorance and downright stupidity...[/quote]

Hypocrite. You're the who keeps making up excuses for your all-powerful and all-knowing god.

Oh, and I see you're using ad hominem attacks also.

[quote]So says the queen of logical fallacies who can not answer a single question I asked or prove any of my responses as wrong.[/quote]

Then show me where I went wrong.

[quote] I said that because your arguments have been answered for hundereds of years... you are just too lazy to do any research that requires you to think. Why read when you can blame God for not making things clear for you...[/quote]

I have read quite a part of the bible, okay? As for research, I have read a lot of apologetics, including William Lane Craig's articles also, not impressed by any of them.

[quote]Let's see...

1. God does not make the Bible easy to understand.
2. God should make the Bible easy to understand.
3. Therefore, God does not exist...

Don't see the begged question? ;)[/quote]

Begging the question works like this:

p implies q
suppose q
therefore, p.

[quote]I blame you for being lazy... please pay attentin.[/quote]

[quote]Ummm... are you just too lazy to do your own homework and just looking for excuse to hold onto your doubt? When you are done question begging and making excuses for your laziness... come back and try this agian.[/quote]

Yet another ad hominem here. Are you just going to continue with these attacks by calling me lazy and accusing me of not doing my homework? I have read apologetics materials, okay? Not impressed by any of them.

[quote]Because you don't want to take the time to understand the Bible? Yep... teenage laziness... and people wonder why the rest of the world looks down on the US... *sigh*

Terror
[/quote]

I have read part of the bible, and quite a few of the members on here are ex-Xians who read the bible everyday. If you claim that they don't know the bible, you are very wrong.

[quote=noor]I think that qualifies as Argumentum ad Ignoratium.[/quote]

How so? It's your job to prove otherwise, not mine. Now get to work on proving otherwise.

[quote]Please stop projecting your flaws on me.[/quote]

All you have is that, "I am rubber and you are glue" thing? Sorry that you have been shown that you are not as smart as you think you are. When you are done making excuses for your ignorance. I'll be waiting. ;)

[quote]Argumentum ad populum again. I can also use the same fallacy and ask, what about those who read the bible and weren't converted?[/quote]

Ummm, sorry that isn't argumentum ad populum... I'm asking you, if other people can understand it, why can't you? Now, you simply have a begged question. Some people mentined in the Bible did not become Christians or Jews, so what? How does this disprove Christianity? Does the whole world not being atheism disprove atheism?

[quote]Hypocrite. You're the who keeps making up excuses for your all-powerful and all-knowing god.[/quote]

So says the person who is too lazy to go grab a commentary and a Bible and begin to do an in depth study of the verse(s) in question. Got a reason yet why God should do your homework for you?

[quote]Oh, and I see you're using ad hominem attacks also.[/quote]

Do you knwo what an ad hominem is? An ad hominem is when I attack you and don't answer your questions. I have and I pointed out you are simply being lazy... the proof? You blame God for not making the Bible easy to understand, yet you don't want to do your homework to figure out why.

[quote]Then show me where I went wrong.[/quote]

When you blamed God for your own ignorance and unwillingness to do your homework... in other words... the begining.

[quote]I have read quite a part of the bible, okay? As for research, I have read a lot of apologetics, including William Lane Craig's articles also, not impressed by any of them.[/quote]

That's nice, I also have books by Richard Dawkins and debate atheist like yourself on a regular bases. I've not been very impressed by what I have found... However; many of these other atheist have given me a challange... you haven't...

[quote]Begging the question works like this:

p implies q
suppose q
therefore, p.[/quote]

You mean like you did? You said God does not exist, say the Bible is not easy to understand proves he doesn't exist, therefore God doesn't exist... Looks like a begged question...

[quote]Yet another ad hominem here. Are you just going to continue with these attacks by calling me lazy and accusing me of not doing my homework? I have read apologetics materials, okay? Not impressed by any of them.[/quote]

That's nice, yet you can't even answer a few simple questions and simply make up excuses on the spot such as, "This part of the Bible is a hyperbole, so that measn all of it is!" That is absured and downright lazy... Sorry, but I'm not using an ad hominem... simply calling a spade a spade and proving it.

[quote]I have read part of the bible, and quite a few of the members on here are ex-Xians who read the bible everyday. If you claim that they don't know the bible, you are very wrong.[/quote]

I'm sorry, reading the Bible does not prove you understand it no more than being able to read poetry proves you can understand poetry. So far... it appears you don't understand it and make excuses and downright absured claims for your ignorance. You read a few things by Craig, that's nice, ever debated somebody as well informed as him?

Terror

(I'm going to laugh at the response :) )

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. - Verse from Jesus responsible for untold amount of people being burnt at the stake.

"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means." [George Bernard Shaw]

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/jesus.php

[quote=Guruite]Okay, I was talking with my father and we somehow got on the whole "if you could kill one person in history" discussion. I was wondering - if you could remove someone in history (and of course assume that history would continue in some fasion similar to what we have today) who would it be? (obviously foir the moral good, not personal vengance)[/quote]

I wouldnt. THeres really no way of telling the ramifications of removing a person from history. Especially if they lived a long time ago(like more than a couple of hundred years).

[quote]I personally think that Jesus would be my canidate... yes people would be religious and killing would have gone on. However he is (one of) the causes of the dark ages (we were doing Ok with the pagan Gods) [/quote]

Wrong, the dark ages were casued by the weakening of the Roman empire(and its eventual collapse). This had mostly economic causes, and virtually nothing to do with religion. It doubtless would have happened with or without Jesus.

In fact it was Christians monostaries that protected much of the learning from the Roman empire durring that time.

[quote=Guruite]IBut they (I beleve) Kept it from the common people... letting them work and keeping them in fear and superstition...[/quote]

No, most people durring the Dark ages were too busy trying to survive to be concerned about such. Not to mention mostly illeterate of their own language, let alone Greek and Latin.

The only thing the church purposefully hid from the common folk was the Bible itself. Out of a misunderstood notion of it being too 'holy' for anybody but the clergy.

[quote=GrapeScentedGuru]Not this discussion again...

Communism, though its intentions may be honorable, is a fundamentally flawed system. It is incapable of sustaining itself while simultaniously preserving the classless equality it strives to present.[/quote]

I know, I don't think a true communism ever will exist, and I don't think it'd be a good thing anyways.

Just saying that it hasn't

Hey, thought I would throw my two cents in regarding communism. I recently saw this docu- special from Milton Freedman, a nobel prize winning economist. It is called Free to Choose, and I would highly recommend it, because it is on Google Video.

Anyways, he mentioned Communist Poker. I have thought about this concept, but I think he lays it down eloquently. The game is played thusly: People bring whatever amount of money they want to the table, play poker until they want to quit. At this time, everybody gets an equal amount of chips and goes home.

He says, not only does it make it nearly meaningless to be a winner, even the losers don't like it. They might like it for a game, but what is the point of going back if you know how everything is going to play out?

Thought this would shed some light on why Humans inherently cannot live in Communism. Nobody would play the game. And with fewer and fewer chips brought in, everbody gets poorer.

There are WAY more problems with it, which are detailed in the docu- special. They have to do with human nature, freedom, and other things I enjoy.

In interest of full disclosure: I joke a lot about hating communists. It is partially true. I tend to judge people, to a large degree, on their ideological choices. But I never express hatred, or even light animosity.

[quote=Guruite]I have proably said that I hate communists... I too, Joke but in person it is more apparent so...

I dont like people's idologies if they conflict with mine... but that dosent say how i feel about them... ill leave that with their actions/ words

I just think that communism is too restricting.. in a communist society people are not allowed to go and make "capiunes" like people in capitilist govenments can make communes ... we have communes in the U.S. but people are free to leave and become capatilists... this is not the case in communist countries (the polker analogy was good tho..)

[/quote]

Why are you comparing Communism to Capitalism? Capitalism is an economic policy, Communism is governmental.
Communism - Democracy
Socialism - Capitalism

And by 'commune' (the definition of which is to talk or converse), I think you mean community, which is where Communism gets its name.
As for people being free to 'leave and become capitalists', people are free to be socialist or capitalist wherever they are, which the exception of totalitarianist countries. That infers that they are of a prefeerence. I think what you mean is they are free to engage in that economic system, in which case I'd have to point out that in no system can people defect from their country's economic system. In the US, we are Capitalist, no matter what you say. In the USSR, they were Socialist. In England, they are a hybrid.

In actuallity, people are free to do as they please in Communism. The inherent flaw most people point out is that under a severe Socialist government all jobs pay the same wage, which discourages people to work harder for the same pay. Would you work to become a doctor when you could make the same living as a fast food chef?

That is why Communism is flawed. Under stark Socialism, the people fail to support the country. Under anything else, a class division is created by the higher wage workers and the lower, and the system becomes redundant.

Also, what is a capiune?

Hey, you mentioned 'extreme capitalism'. What on earth is that?

Don't be dissing capitalism!

I personally think that Jesus would be my canidate... yes people would be religious and killing would have gone on. However he is (one of) the causes of the dark ages (we were doing Ok with the pagan Gods) says Guruite

It seems Christ affects those who says they don't believe in Him ;)
Well let me say this, It really seems you are convicted by Christ or you wouldn't care if he was here or not. The people who did religious killing were not true christians. No part in the bible does it permit the destruction of unbelievers. You are confusing us with the Muslims where it says in their koran to kill the infidel,jews and christians where ever you may find them.
Now I am one of the few christian teenagers who speak out against this because I believe both sides of the story should be heard. If you read about stuff like Crusades you'll find out that the Pope is the one who sanctioned the murderous war on unbelieving people. I don't believe in Catholics but I am christian and christianity and catholics should not be classified under one name Christianity because we believe in different things.

[quote=Christfolyfe]I personally think that Jesus would be my canidate... yes people would be religious and killing would have gone on. However he is (one of) the causes of the dark ages (we were doing Ok with the pagan Gods) says Guruite

It seems Christ affects those who says they don't believe in Him ;)
Well let me say this, It really seems you are convicted by Christ or you wouldn't care if he was here or not. The people who did religious killing were not true christians. No part in the bible does it permit the destruction of unbelievers. You are confusing us with the Muslims where it says in their koran to kill the infidel,jews and christians where ever you may find them.
Now I am one of the few christian teenagers who speak out against this because I believe both sides of the story should be heard. If you read about stuff like Crusades you'll find out that the Pope is the one who sanctioned the murderous war on unbelieving people. I don't believe in Catholics but I am christian and christianity and catholics should not be classified under one name Christianity because we believe in different things.[/quote]

No. For example, I vehemently disbelieve in Santa(and in telling kids he exists. I see it as a form of mental child abuse. When I raise kids, I will tell them Santa, but a different Santa. Santa is the idea that we should promote generosity among people, and give to those who mean a lot to us, and I will encourage my kids to do the same(with my money obviously until they are older but...) THat does not mean I believe in Jesus. See, the thing is, they were true Christians, and were following the orders of the bible.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

or

Deuteronomy 13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Deuteronomy 17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

[quote=JoshHickman]Please, purchase a Koran. Read it. Direct me to your evidence. the Koran is MUCH less violent than the chrisitian babble.[/quote]

Sorry Josh, but I must dissent. The Koran is, at parts, very non-violent. However, there are sections of DIRE violence, namely calling for death to the unbelievers. The worst part by far is the hadith, which is not part of the Koran, but idealized equally or more, having been proclaimed by Muhammad. Christianity is less violent specifically, HOWEVER, the scope of such violence(actions which are punishable) is far greater. Drinking alcohol can result in amputation, pregnancy out of marriage, stoning.

i think that they worship something like jesus 2.0 ... new and improved (with less anger)... whereas mormons worship jesus 3.0 ... actually broken down and powerless....

Well, I definently took that bit from Martin Luther and Joseph Smith (only I cut out some parts) :)

[quote=lilangelofterror]

[quote=American Atheist]

Matthew 18:8
(out of context verse)

Matthew 18:9
(out of context verse)
[/quote]

Again, know anything about hyperbolic lanuage? Jesus is saying whatever causes you to sin, cut yourself off from it. He's not saying to chop off your hands, Please read a commentary before you open your mouth. Now it's time for your next verse:[/quote]

Yes, I know about hyperbolic language, but guess what? Jesus said it is [b]better[/b] to be maimed.

[quote]Once again, Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell.[/quote]

[quote]Ummm no, once again you don't understand the passage or what a hyperbole is. When you are able to read, try agian.[/quote]

[quote]Mark 9:43-48
(out of context verse)[/quote]

[quote]Lame... same as above Jesus is not saying to chop off your hands... it's a hyperbole, when you learn what a hyperbole is and how to understand how you find them. Try this again.

Terror[/quote]

Once, again, Jesus says it is [b]better[/b] to be maimed.

[quote=American Atheist]I WAS a christian.[/quote]

[quote=lilangelofterror] I was once an atheist, your point?[/quote]

Your claiming to be an atheist and becoming a Christian only proves that you changed your mind. Talking donkeys, humans coming out of dirt and spirit sperm will never be real even if Richard Dawkins himself sucked up to mythology.

My guess is that when you say "atheist" you're going by a Christian definition. An atheist to many Christians is anyone who doesn't follow god's words. I doubt seriously that you were basing using that word to mean, "lack of evidence".

You probably got so burnt out by your past behavior that you wanted to turn to something you thought would help you stop that prior behavior.

There are so many logical and moral objections to the concept of a super natural being. I doubt you had enough experience in "atheism" to understand why you called yourself an "atheist".

Actually, listen to an atheist-turned-fundie's answer when you ask them "why". My guess is that it will be emotional not emperical and they will use self-serving circular arguments.

[quote]I just didn't want to worship some god with a self-esteem problem.[/quote]

[quote]Yep... still no answer... where does God have a self esteem problem? Because he says you must obey him...awww... I guess our government does too when they say to obey their laws or go to jail...[/quote]

He said he's a jealous god.

Actually, the government doesn't send us to hell. I'd rather go to jail, thank you.

[quote]Oh... Take your time... I'm sure you'll answer my research that I got from people they know what they talking about from something by the 'irrational responders' who have refused to come to theologyweb to debate us...[/quote]

And you didn't come to our RRS forum to debate us.

I don't care if you are Stalin reborn, you aren't guilty until you yourself have done something wrong and it has been proven in court. Guilt by association has always been crap, and will continue to be crap.

Moses

Assuming he really existed.

Followed by Hitler and Mohammed and Paul the apostle, and a bunch of other people following.
First and foremost- MOSES!

In Reason:
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