Debate over non-cognitivism with a Christian over facebook. Yeah I know it's incredibly long. (Names have been removed, except mine) [quote]Hey, I noticed that you joined the group "...So apparently I'm going to hell." I just wanted to let you know that God is really awesome and caring, and I wanted to tell you that if you ever have any questions about Christianity whatsoever, just ask me and I will do my best to answer even though I'm not a Biblical expert. However, I do know that God has been a great blessing to me in my life.[/quote] [quote]Hmm. Well to start off, why don't you start by defining the term "God"? By that I mean, list the basic characteristics of "God" such as all-powerful, the creator, etc. I'll explain the point of this soon. Later, Noor[/quote] [quote]Well, my first and primary answer to your question for me to "define the term God" is that it would be impossible for me to exactly define God since I could probably be here forever listing adjectives to definie God, but that is what is so ironic. God is indeed related to the word "impossible" because He can do things that humans would think would be impossible. However, even though I cannot exactly define God entirely, I can list some of His characteristics in this message even though I cannot list them all: You state that a suggested way that I should describe God would be as "all-powerful." I definitely would define God as all-powerful to the limit of all-powerfulness. Have you ever heard the phrase, "If God is all-powerful and can do anything, then can He create a rock that is so heavy that He cannot lift it up?" Either way you answer the question, you are going to show that God is not truly entirely powerful. That is because God is a lot like the number .999999999999 with the nine repeating infinitely. 1/3 is .33333333333 repeating decimal. 2/3 is .6666666666666666666 repeating decimal. So, technically speaking, 3/3 ought to be .999999999 repeating decimal, but .99999999999 repeating decimal is considered to be equal to one because it is so close to one. That is the way it is with God. God is as all-powerful as it is possible to be all-powerful. So, He is typically described as being all-powerful. However, to try to be precise, I will define God as being all-powerful to the limit of all-powerfulness. Another way that you suggested to define God was as "the creator." I would definitely define God as the creator in the sense that it was His idea to create the world. However, at the same time that I would define God as the creator, I also feel that the Holy Spirit played a role in the creation of the world. You must remember that the Holy Spirit was with God when He created the world, and we can see that the Holy Spirit was with God when He created the world by looking at Genesis 1:26 which reads, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..." The key words here are "us" and "our." So, the Holy Spirit clearly had to be with God when He made the universe, and God clearly wanted the Holy Spirit's help making all that He wanted to make such as man. It makes perfect sense that God and the Holy Spirit would have been co-creators of the world. The Holy Spirit's primary role throughout the Bible is to help implement and carry out God's will. So, as soon as God would have said that He wanted to create the world, the Holy Spirit would have been right there with God helping Him out as a co-creator. There are many other ways to define God. God is jealous, but unlike human jealousy which has envy, God's jealousy doesn't contain any envy. God is jealous in the sense that He does not like it when we place sin before Him in our lives. However, He is not envious of sin because He knows that He has no reason to envy sin since Jesus already overcame sin on the cross. God is merciful, but at the same time He is wrathful. God is loving, and He shows love to a thousand generations of those who love Him. However, at the same time, God can be seen to be a punisher throughout the Bible, but that is o.k. to think of God that way because God is like a father, and any good father would punish His children. Umm... How many ways do I need to describe God? Would you wish for me to go on? Overall, I would say that God can be seen as having two sides to Him. On the one hand, God can be caring, kind, and loving. However, God can also be wrathful, jealous, and angry when He has cause to be angry. Let me know if I need to keep going on.[/quote] [quote]Just to clarify, I don't use arguments based on evidence of a "god" or anything like that. I prefer to deal with semantic apologetics, the definition and meaning of things. I'm not like most other atheists, although I used to be your typical militant agnostic atheist for years, before becoming a strong atheist. My basic position is that "God" is impossible, which is pretty rare for atheists. Anyways. For something to exist, it must have attributes (characteristics or qualities). Attributes can be classified into three categories: 1. primary attributes - size, shape, volume, etc. They are objective, independent of any observer. What a thing is, specifically, that makes it do particular things or affect those around it in a certain way. 2. secondary attributes - character traits, color, taste, smell, sound. They produce sensations in observers and are subjective. 3. relational attributes - "superior", "inferior", "creator", etc are all relational attributes since they describe how an entity relates to other entities. Now here's an important premise - secondary and relational attributes are dependent on, and must be related to primary attributes. "The plastic chair is white." White is a secondary attribute of the chair. The statement makes sense because we know the chair is made of materials capable of possessing color (primary attribute). The secondary attribute (the color white) is dependent on the primary attribute (plastic). Now if I was to say "The sound is brown", that would not make any sense because we know that the nature of sound is that it cannot carry color (secondary attribute). So basically, primary attributes are necessary for a secondary or relative attribute to be valid. Here's another important part - the impossibility of negative definitions. Consider the following statement: "I am not Brad Pitt." This doesn't tell you anything about me; it only tells you what I am not. I could be any other responsive entity in the universe, a possibly existing alien or anyone out of the billions of humans - it completely lacks specificity. If I was to define myself, I would have to use a positive term, or I remain undefined and therefore meaningless (in terms of ontology). Defining "God" as being infinite, omnipotent (infinitely powerful), omniscient, omni-present, etc. are all negative definitions as "infinite" means not finite, and is therefore a negative definition. All these attributes are hence invalid. Defining "God" as immaterial (not material), supernatural (not natural), etc. are also negative definitions and are hence invalid. Defining "God" as good, merciful, jealous, wrathful, loving, etc. are all secondary characteristics, and as they must be dependent on the primary attributes, are also invalid without any primary attribute. Defining "God" as the Creator necessarily implies the Creator OF something, and thus makes it a relative attribute. "The Creator" does not tell us anything about what "God" IS, only how he relates to the universe. It's the same with "the Highest", "Our Father", "the Ruler", etc. They don't tell us anything about what "God" is, only how he relates to us or the universe. Without any primary characteristics, they're all invalid. (Even if you do not believe "God" to have some of those characteristics, that's fine, it doesn't undermine the argument.) So in the end, we are left without a definition of what "God" IS, thus rendering the term meaningless. This means that the proposition "God exists" is contradictory (as an entity must have a definition in order to exist), and therefore strong atheism is justified. Possible objections: "God is an exception to this - he doesn't need attributes." If "God" has no definition, how do you know he exists in the first place? And don't go on attempting to provide evidence - you first need to have a definition for the god-concept before you can even consider the possibility of it existing. "God is beyond these rules of metaphysics." Metaphysics is about principles of existence, so if God is beyond these principles of existence, that means that "God" is beyond existence, which is the stance of atheism. There are many more arguments for strong atheism on these metaphysical/ontological premises, but the non-cognitivist one remains a favorite. Laters, Noor[/quote] [quote]Hi, I don't have time right now to read all of your message because I have to get up really early Friday, and I am going to have a very busy weekend. So, I really need to get a lot of sleep tonight. However, I did read the very first part of your message about things needing to have primary attributes in order to have secondary or relational attributes, and I feel that I need to at least write you a quick message in order for me to be able to feel at peace tonight while I sleep. God actually does indeed have primary attributes. Genesis 1:26 says that we were made in the image of God and the Holy Spirit. So, if we were made in God's image, then His primary attributes are the same as ours. However, we cannot actually see God because based on particle physics, He exists in another dimension. I wish I had the time to re-look this up because it has been awhile for me since I learned about this, but particle physics shows us that there are either eleven or twelve dimensions here on the earth. I've forgotten exactly how many there are. Particle physics also shows that when we die, there is a part of us that continues on in one of the other dimensions here on earth. According to the teachings of Christianity, that part of us which continues on would be our soul. The sixth dimension is the dimension that Christ would have appeared to us in after He died because it is that dimension where a soul can continue on after death and still be visible to the inhabitants of the earth. Most Christians look to the sky when they think about heaven. However, that is wrong. Heaven is actually in another dimension here on earth. Those Christians who look to the sky when they think about heaven overlook some very important verses in the Bible because they don't understand those verses, and often what is misunderstood in the Bible is overlooked. There are many Christians that believe in Jesus but don't really strive to understand absolutely ever verse in the Bible, and they just overlook those which they do not understand. The verses that I want to bring up are the verses where Jesus says that the kingdom of heaven is among us here on the earth. That would have been something crazy to have said in Jesus' time because the kingdom of heaven clearly could not have been seen on the earth, and there was no particle physics at that time to prove that there were other dimensions on the earth. So, I think that this shows that Jesus is my Savior because He would have had to of come to our dimension from the dimension in which heaven exists in order for Him to know that there were other dimensions on the earth. Anyways, I know that's not extremely in depth, and I wish I had time to write more. When I get a chance, I am going to look up some verses in the Bible where Jesus says that heaven is on earth because I would have liked to have quoted some of them in this message, but for now, I must sleep, and I hope to read the rest of the message that you sent me sometime in the near future.[/quote] [quote]"God actually does indeed have primary attributes. Genesis 1:26 says that we were made in the image of God and the Holy Spirit. So, if we were made in God's image, then His primary attributes are the same as ours." Humans are made of carbon atoms, are solid, have a fairly defined shape, etc. Those are all our primary attributes, none of which apply to "God." Also, particle physics does not say for sure that there are other dimensions, just that there could be. You're saying that "God" is in another dimension, which basically means "God" is not in space-time, which amounts to another negative definition. Even if extra dimensions were proven to exist, saying that "God" exists on those dimensions would still not answer the question of what "God" IS. It'd only answer how "God" relates to the other dimension, thus making it a relative attribute. You can't cite the bible as proof of any of this before you provide a meaning for "God", so don't quote the bible as that only makes it circular. Later, Noor[/quote] [quote]O.k. I am currently reading the rest of your first message about why God doesn't exist. You say that you cannot define God by negative definitions. However, the negative definitions with which you can describe God are not truly negative definitions. For example: As I have previously stated, I think that God is all-powerful to the limit of all-powerfulness. So, that is not a negative definition because it is a way to describe God in which there is a limit. Also, since I think that God exists somewhere else (be that in another dimension or not), I think that it could be very possible for God to be made of some form of material. O.k. I just read that I shouldn't try to use evidence because I need to have a definition for God. My definition for God is: Jesus. Wait, I'm reading your second message, and I don't understand why you would think that it would be impossible for God to not have a defined shape. The Bible says that God made us in His image. So, if we were made to look like Him, why would He not have our shape? Of course, all that I am telling you is what I think, and because God is much smarter than me, my ideas might be totally wrong. Please do not take my ideas about the way the Bible should be interpreted to necessarily be true. I like to think about what I think the Bible is trying to say. However, because I am not God, I do not really know for sure that anything that I have been telling you is the correct way to interpret the Bible.[/quote] [quote]Sorry about the late reply, I've just been feeling lazy. Oh well, I better get over it. "As I have previously stated, I think that God is all-powerful to the limit of all-powerfulness. So, that is not a negative definition because it is a way to describe God in which there is a limit." What you're trying to say is that God cannot do that which is logically impossible, right? Even if God's power was limited, being powerful always implies power over something. Which results in a relative attribute again. "Also, since I think that God exists somewhere else (be that in another dimension or not), I think that it could be very possible for God to be made of some form of material." Material means that it is matter, and one of the first principles of matter is that it occupies space. So if God was outside our space-time dimensions it'd be impossible for him to be material. "My definition for God is: Jesus." "So, if we were made to look like Him, why would He not have our shape?" So what you're trying to say is that God is like any human, made of carbon atoms and has organs and such?[/quote] [quote]Dear Noor, I am very wrong. God is not just like any human. He is probably at least somewhat like a human because He made us in His image, but He is not limited to the mere shape of human, and heaven is probably not just limited to existing in another dimension on earth. Heaven could be anywhere. God knows everything, and He knows where heaven is. God is wonderful, and He has no limit whatsoever. I take back everything I have said. I want to take a quote out of the 2nd revised edition of a book called "Show Me God: What the Message from Space Is Telling Us About God" by Fred Heeren which has changed my opinions: "Among all the ancient peoples, only the Hebrews got their cosmology right. While the rest of the world believed in a magical, eternal universe that gave birth to the gods, only they believed in an eternal, transcendent God who gave the universe its beginning. Like every cause, the Cause of the universe must be independent of its effect. Thus, the First Cause must be separate from the universe, not a part of it. From ancient times, the Bible has clearly presented God as non-physical, a Spirit who cannot be contained, even by the heavens. Unlike other ancient religious writings, the Bible prohibited the making of images of God, making it a point to teach that He is not a physical being. The consensus of modern science is that the universe - and time itself - had a beginning. Nothing that is confined to time could have created the cosmos. God must not only be separate from His creation, but He must exist outside of time. Again, from ancient days, the Bible specifically defined God as the I AM, operating outside of time and existing before the universe He created." I love getting to have this conversation with you because I really enjoy talking about this kind of stuff, and I can't wait to get your next message! :) I also have a friend [name removed] who really enjoys discussing Christianity, and he told me to give you his phone number in case you want to talk to him. You don't have to if you don't want to, but just in case you want to, it is [phone number removed].[/quote] [quote]"Dear Noor, I am very wrong. God is not just like any human." Negative attribute. "He is probably at least somewhat like a human because He made us in His image, but He is not limited to the mere shape of human" Negative and relative attributes. "and heaven is probably not just limited to existing in another dimension on earth. Heaven could be anywhere." Negative attribute. "God knows everything, and He knows where heaven is." Relative attributes. "God is wonderful" Secondary attribute. "and He has no limit whatsoever. I take back everything I have said." Negative attribute. Again you haven't explained what "God" IS. If you can't define "God" in a positive way, the term remains meaningless. For an example, suppose I told you that I have something in my hands. I tell you that this thing is not wood, not metal, not pink, and not a potato. That's ALL there is to know about it. Do you see why negative definitions are invalid? "Among all the ancient peoples, only the Hebrews got their cosmology right. While the rest of the world believed in a magical, eternal universe that gave birth to the gods, only they believed in an eternal, transcendent God who gave the universe its beginning." "Eternal" means without time (negative attribute), "transcendent" means surpassing/going beyond something else (relative attribute). "Like every cause, the Cause of the universe must be independent of its effect. Thus, the First Cause must be separate from the universe, not a part of it." If the principle "every effect has a cause" applies within the universe, that doesn't mean it necessarily applies to the universe itself. "From ancient times, the Bible has clearly presented God as non-physical" Negative attribute. "a Spirit who cannot be contained, even by the heavens." Negative attribute. "Unlike other ancient religious writings, the Bible prohibited the making of images of God, making it a point to teach that He is not a physical being." Negative attribute...for like the thousandth time. "The consensus of modern science is that the universe - and time itself - had a beginning. Nothing that is confined to time could have created the cosmos. God must not only be separate from His creation, but He must exist outside of time." Negative attribute. You can't say that "God" created the universe or even exists, if you can't define what "God" IS. "Again, from ancient days, the Bible specifically defined God as the I AM, operating outside of time and existing before the universe He created." Negative attributes...yet again. You haven't told me anything about what "God" IS, you've only told me what he isn't. If the term "God" doesn't have a definition, the phrase "God exists" is a contradiction, and therefore strong atheism is justified. "I love getting to have this conversation with you because I really enjoy talking about this kind of stuff, and I can't wait to get your next message! :)" Likewise! "I also have a friend [name removed] who really enjoys discussing Christianity, and he told me to give you his phone number in case you want to talk to him. You don't have to if you don't want to, but just in case you want to, it is [phone number removed]." Meh, I don't really talk on the phone (my hearing and speech issues) but if there's any other way, sure.[/quote]