Your last blog didn't prove anything. Just the same crap that has been refuted so many times.

As for the RRS, I have never seen them force anybody to stop believing in God. Most of the atheist members at the site were atheists even before the RRS got started.

An objective moral standard does exist. They come from rights and self-ownership, not a god. And you're just begging the question - you assume that a god HAD to create morals in the first place.

And how the fuck does no god mean no absolute truth? Again you're begging the question.

I think George Bernard Shaw couldn't have put this better:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

Use wisdom in this noor, thats all I can say. Christianity is not about "being happy" When I was high that was "being happy." Its about peace and joy and fufillment.

Have you seen Brian's closing statement to his debate? Forcing as in physically no. He never forced, but he wants to destryo faith. Ask why.

If morals have evolved, sort of like in monkey's who show altruisic tendencies than that shows how we have been conditioned through society to think it is wrong. It does not suggest why it is wrong. Because if good and evil are regulated based on what society says than they are subjective. If we were all brainwashed into thinking that killing the jews is all right and society says it is, than based on your view it would be. But it wouldn't be. It would be wrong. Therefore moral objectives exist and therefore God exists.

Think about it what regulates truth? What outside a human regulates truth? If there was nothing outside material to regulate truth than truth must be subjective (if you are a materialist, which Im going to assume you are) Which means we make our own truth. Truth would than have to be relative.

If your an atheist how do explain conciousness? Why would a bunch of molecules have thinking ability? Many atheists speculate that conciousness comes from the brain. I am going to prove to you that it comes from an immaterial self. Something outside of the body, call it a soul.

Evidence for consciousness not being part of the brain: 1Wilder Penfield electrically stimulated the brains of epilepsy patients and found he could cause them to move their arms or legs, turn their heads or eyes. The patient would respond by saying, "I didn't do that. You did. Penfield- The patient thinks of himself as having an existence separate from his body. Penfield- (No matter how much he probed the cerebral cortex said,) There is no place where electrical stimulation will cause a patient to believe or to decide. That’s because these functions originate in the conscious self, not the brain.
2. This was validated when Roger Sperry and his team studied the differences between the brain's right and left hemispheres, they discovered the mind has a causal power independent of the brain's activities. This led Sperry to conclude materialism was false.
3. Another study showed a delay between the time an electric shock was applied to the skin, its reaching the cerebral cortex and the self-conscious perception of it by the person. This suggest the self is more that just a machine that reacts to stimuli as it receives them.
Quote from Laurence C. Wood- Many brain scientists have been compelled to postulate the existence of an immaterial mind, even though they may not embrace a belief in an after-life.

So in closing, I think this is good proof that consciousness and thinking ability do not originate from the brain but comes from an immaterial self that is not part of the body. This follows that our thoughts are not part of our physical body.
The bible teaches that our soul (our consciousness that animates our body) is distinct from our body, and when our soul leaves our body becomes a corpse. Here are more claims validating the consciousness leaving the body. http://bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

We got our conscious and morals from evolution.

Next...

[quote=timbobwaay]Use wisdom in this noor, thats all I can say. Christianity is not about "being happy" When I was high that was "being happy." Its about peace and joy and fufillment. [/quote]

I don't need a god for happiness. And in fact religion works like a drug - it makes you feel happy that there is a great big invisible skydaddy out there, but in the long run it can be rather destructive overall.

[quote=timbobwaay]Have you seen Brian's closing statement to his debate? Forcing as in physically no. He never forced, but he wants to destryo faith. Ask why.[/quote]

Because faith is irrational and dangerous to the world. That's why.

[quote=timbobwaay]If morals have evolved, sort of like in monkey's who show altruisic tendencies than that shows how we have been conditioned through society to think it is wrong. It does not suggest why it is wrong.[/quote]

It's wrong because murder is not what the victim wants. People will label things as "right" and "wrong" based on what they think of it. All people who have been stolen from will call stealing wrong because stealing is involuntary (not what they want) by definition.

[quote]Because if good and evil are regulated based on what society says than they are subjective. If we were all brainwashed into thinking that killing the jews is all right and society says it is, than based on your view it would be. But it wouldn't be. It would be wrong.[/quote]

No. You're getting it mixed up. From an [b]outsider[/b]'s viewpoint, murder might be considered fine. The outsiders' viewpoint is not what matters - it's the victim's since each person owns himself/herself and decides what he/she wants for themselves. ALL people don't want to be stolen from, enslaved, or murdered, therefore all victims will label them as wrong. By definition murder is not what the victim wants. The victim (Jews) will always label murder as wrong, because it's not what they wanted.

[quote]Therefore moral objectives exist and therefore God exists.[/quote]

Non-sequitor. It might as well have been Thor who gave us morals (if an authority was needed for them).

[quote]Think about it what regulates truth? What outside a human regulates truth? If there was nothing outside material to regulate truth than truth must be subjective (if you are a materialist, which Im going to assume you are) Which means we make our own truth. Truth would than have to be relative. [/quote]

No. We don't make our own truth. We learn truths. There doesn't have to be anything to regulate truth - that's another non-sequitor.

[quote]Look at my last blog as I clearly demonstrated that atheism is illogical. Also without a God there would be no laws of logic, objective moral standards, and no such thing as truth (it would have to be relative but is the statement that truth is relative an absolute one?) [/quote]
I have logic, morals, and I tell the truth. THe ones who work for "Him" are the ones who lie.

[quote]The RRS has cleary demonstrated that the only reason they do not want to belief in a God is because than they could not live their life how they wanted.[/quote]
1. Proof please
2. I love my life
3. "God" didnt do anything for me

[quote]But I assure you, after living a life for myself and than living for HIm my life is way better than I have ever imagined.[/quote]

Yea and when "God" flooded my entire city I was real happy.

[quote]The RRS does not what you to have the joy that comes with a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is why they deny the historical fact of the ressurection and want everybody to be like them. [/quote]
1. Proof please

[quote]This is the same as a person who does drugs (believe me I was one of them) as the person trys to get all his friends involved in drugs. (Believe me) This person unconsiously is trying to make them feel as miserable as they feel. So in the same way is the RRS. Ask yourself why the RRS is trying so hard to take people away from their faith.[/quote]
1. RRS doesnt make me miserable
2. What religion are drug dealers? I know one and he's a devout Baptist. Hm. I guess Jesus wants him to sell Triple C's

[quote]A lot of you may not want to humble yourselves. I understand it is no easy process to admit you are wrong. It took me almost to suicide till I did. [/quote]
1. No Im fine and and suicide-free
2. Im not wrong until you prove you are right

[quote]But you can have the joy, the intellectual savity, and the peace that comes from a relationship with God.[/quote]

1. Lol, Intellectual savity? Did you read the Book of the Mormon? :)
2. Relationship with God like a priest and an alter boy? Opps, I went too far...

[quote]Surely now you must realize why I post here. I see the pain in teens such as myself. But God has healed me of mine. Don't be stubborn please! I beg you, you don't know how much better your life will be.[/quote]

When God pays my bills, rebuilts our flooded rental property, or gives me a new JL Audio Amp we'll talk.

[quote]If He's tuggin at your heart right now, answer HIm. It will be the best thing you've ever done.[/quote]

No the only thing tugging at my heart is the fast food I ate today.

Okay Noor you made a very broad statement. Couldn't I just as easily say that your running away from the fatherly figure because you don't want to be held accountable? See that is a broad statement that is not true in all cases as well. And how do you know what it feels like? Your paroting of other atheists who have made similar deductions that aren't true, but only the atheist's opinion.

[quote=timbobwaay]Okay Noor you made a very broad statement. Couldn't I just as easily say that your running away from the fatherly figure because you don't want to be held accountable? See that is a broad statement that is not true in all cases as well. And how do you know what it feels like? Your paroting of other atheists who have made similar deductions that aren't true, but only the atheist's opinion.[/quote]

And I could also claim that you're running away from Vishnu. You never believed in him, so you won't understand the happiness he'll give you.

How could you get consciousness from material evolution? Matter is matter it does not spawn immaterial consciousness. Unless of course your saying that consciousness comes from the brain which I have already shown is false. You may say, well your using the god of the gap argument, well I think God fits a lot better than the nature of the gap argument.
The Universe had a beginning and since nature had a beginning you cannot say nature made itself. You might say, well why could it not be a natural thing that is not affected by time, space, and was eternal? If the Universe were just a mechanical consequence that would occur whenever sufficient conditions were met, and the sufficient conditions were met eternally, then it would exist from eternity past. The effect would be co eternal with the cause. But the Universe is not eternal. So the cause of the Universe must be not affected by time, or timeless. How do you explain the origin of a finite universe from a timeless cause? There is only one explanation, the cause is a personal agent that has freedom of will and can create a new effect without any antecedent determining conditions. So He could say, Let there be light and the universe would spring into existence.

Without anywhere to turn the atheists now has to say that the Universe came out of nothing. I mean not just empty space but absolutely nothing. You cannot postulate the nature of the gap argument here. Thomas Aquinas, who was living in the time when scientists though the Universe was eternal, argued that God existed with the presupposition that the Universe was eternal. He took this approach because he said that if the Universe had a beginning than proving God would be too easy! This is why I say that it takes more faith to be an atheist. Thinnk about it man!

Except for if you follow where all the gods evolved from you'll find that all people believed in one supreme God who made everything before they started worshiping His creation. Missionairies now only have to say to the people they are reaching "do you want to know the God of your ancestors?" Plus noor the bible prooves that it is ispired through prophesy? OVer 500 ones made that are either fufilled in history or in Jesus. Some are still being fufilled. (The one where it prophesies that Isreal will again become a nation was fufilled in 1948) Also Jesus proved He was God by dying on the cross (The death on the cross bit is not historically disputed since it contains the name of a Jewish leader who Christians could never get away with using if it was false.) And than He rose again. (again the empty tomb is usually not disputed since the first witnesses to Jesus tomb were women and the Jews would not even let women testify in court. The pharases even said that better the law be burned than placed in the hands of a women ((wrote down in Josephius' work)). Than you have the appearances to over 500 people which is not disputed usually either because it is mentioned in 7 historical documents, one of which is the book of Acts which is rarely disputed since all towns and names match with the current archaeology and names of the rulers. Also Paul mentions the people who Jesus appeared to, which could not have been fabricated because it was circulating around only 17 or so years after Jesus death.

Sorry for writting so much, I just wanted to prove that the other god argument is not a good one.

[quote=timbobwaay]How could you get consciousness from material evolution? Matter is matter it does not spawn immaterial consciousness. Unless of course your saying that consciousness comes from the brain which I have already shown is false. You may say, well your using the god of the gap argument, well I think God fits a lot better than the nature of the gap argument.[/quote]

You're still assuming it. Taking it on faith. Kind of like when people thought lightning came from the gods, but then it was shown lightning was natural.

[quote]The Universe had a beginning and since nature had a beginning you cannot say nature made itself. You might say, well why could it not be a natural thing that is not affected by time, space, and was eternal? If the Universe were just a mechanical consequence that would occur whenever sufficient conditions were met, and the sufficient conditions were met eternally, then it would exist from eternity past.[/quote]

No. The universe as we know it is not eternal. Matter could be eternal or not, we don't know as of now.

[quote]The effect would be co eternal with the cause. But the Universe is not eternal. So the cause of the Universe must be not affected by time, or timeless. How do you explain the origin of a finite universe from a timeless cause? There is only one explanation, the cause is a personal agent that has freedom of will and can create a new effect without any antecedent determining conditions. So He could say, Let there be light and the universe would spring into existence.[/quote]

Proof that God did it? You're totally assuming it was a personal deity. Taking it on faith. You have no evidence that there was only one explanation. You're just blocking your ears out to any other possible explanations and saying "God did it. Nothing else could have." which is an assumption.

[quote]Without anywhere to turn the atheists now has to say that the Universe came out of nothing. I mean not just empty space but absolutely nothing.[/quote]

We don't know. Some astrophysics believe it came from nothing (which does not violate the laws of physics), some believe the singularity was eternal, there are other theories like multiverse.

[quote]You cannot postulate the nature of the gap argument here. Thomas Aquinas, who was living in the time when scientists though the Universe was eternal, argued that God existed with the presupposition that the Universe was eternal.[/quote]

Presupposition huh? Assumptions again.

[quote] He took this approach because he said that if the Universe had a beginning than proving God would be too easy! This is why I say that it takes more faith to be an atheist. Thinnk about it man!
[/quote]

No. You're the one who is assuming that the universe was caused by a god. I prefer not to assume, staying open to a deistic god or other causes. You assume "Only God could've done it", I say, "I don't know if a god did it or not."

[quote=timbobwaay]Except for if you follow where all the gods evolved from you'll find that all people believed in one supreme God who made everything before they started worshiping His creation. Missionairies now only have to say to the people they are reaching "do you want to know the God of your ancestors?" [/quote]

Uhm, no. East Asians never did. Almost all Confucianists, Taoists, Buddhists, Jains do not believe in a creator. They never did. Most East Asian religions/philosophies have always remained atheistic.

[quote]Plus noor the bible prooves that it is ispired through prophesy? OVer 500 ones made that are either fufilled in history or in Jesus. Some are still being fufilled. (The one where it prophesies that Isreal will again become a nation was fufilled in 1948) Also Jesus proved He was God by dying on the cross (The death on the cross bit is not historically disputed since it contains the name of a Jewish leader who Christians could never get away with using if it was false.) And than He rose again. (again the empty tomb is usually not disputed since the first witnesses to Jesus tomb were women and the Jews would not even let women testify in court. The pharases even said that better the law be burned than placed in the hands of a women ((wrote down in Josephius' work)). Than you have the appearances to over 500 people which is not disputed usually either because it is mentioned in 7 historical documents, one of which is the book of Acts which is rarely disputed since all towns and names match with the current archaeology and names of the rulers. Also Paul mentions the people who Jesus appeared to, which could not have been fabricated because it was circulating around only 17 or so years after Jesus death.

Sorry for writting so much, I just wanted to prove that the other god argument is not a good one.[/quote]

Check this out:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH110.html

Listen to what Paul says in 1Timothy 5:18
18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[a] and "The worker deserves his wages." Paul first quoted Deuteronomy and than The Gospel of Luke (Part of Luke 10:7 for the worker deserves his wages.)
Paul wrote this letter to Timothy after his release from prison so its dating is from 61 AD to Paul's death 67 but most scholars view Timothy can be dated no later than 64 A.D.
So this places the gospel of Luke at least before 64 A.D. But many claim that since Acts ends abruptly at Paul's imprisonment that Acts was written before 62 so since Luke was written before acts Luke is earlier even than this.
Mark and Matthew were written before Luke.
Jesus says this in Mark 13:1-2 1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

The temple fell in 70 A.D. So Jesus proved His divinity by prophecying that the temple in Jerusalem would fall!

Also Mark can be dated rather early as its story of the end days of Jesus calls the High Priest Caiphus the high priest. Almost like you would call George Bush, the president and everybody would no what your talking about. The high priest Ciaphus held high priest until 37 A.D. So many scholars now date the passion story in Mark (the story of Jesus Crusifixion) Within 37 A.D. or even earlier! There is no way a legend could sprout up and take over historical facts when Jesus only died in A.D. 33!

In closing, I really think atheists should start taking this more seriously. You have one choice to make that could effect the rest of your life (and soul). Take a look at the bible, measure its historical accuracy, its archaelogical acuracy, and so on. Search for truth, this could possibly be the most important decision you'll ever have to make.

[quote=timbobwaay]Listen to what Paul says in 1Timothy 5:18
18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[a] and "The worker deserves his wages." Paul first quoted Deuteronomy and than The Gospel of Luke (Part of Luke 10:7 for the worker deserves his wages.)
Paul wrote this letter to Timothy after his release from prison so its dating is from 61 AD to Paul's death 67 but most scholars view Timothy can be dated no later than 64 A.D.
So this places the gospel of Luke at least before 64 A.D. But many claim that since Acts ends abruptly at Paul's imprisonment that Acts was written before 62 so since Luke was written before acts Luke is earlier even than this.
Mark and Matthew were written before Luke.
Jesus says this in Mark 13:1-2 1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

The temple fell in 70 A.D. So Jesus proved His divinity by prophecying that the temple in Jerusalem would fall!

Also Mark can be dated rather early as its story of the end days of Jesus calls the High Priest Caiphus the high priest. Almost like you would call George Bush, the president and everybody would no what your talking about. The high priest Ciaphus held high priest until 37 A.D. So many scholars now date the passion story in Mark (the story of Jesus Crusifixion) Within 37 A.D. or even earlier! There is no way a legend could sprout up and take over historical facts when Jesus only died in A.D. 33!

In closing, I really think atheists should start taking this more seriously. You have one choice to make that could effect the rest of your life (and soul). Take a look at the bible, measure its historical accuracy, its archaelogical acuracy, and so on. Search for truth, this could possibly be the most important decision you'll ever have to make.[/quote]

Based on OT prophecy, check out what the Messiah SHOULD have done, from a jewish standpoint.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) ( more jews in NY than israel)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25: 8 )
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25: 8 )
all of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
the Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Your premises:
God must create morals
There are morals

Prove both of those premises first.

And how has the RRS shown that those are their reasons? One does not 'choose' to believe or 'want' to believe. You believe what you believe.(or you lie to yourself and pretend)

1. Isaiah 1:26 is prophesying of Israel's captivity in Babylon. And yes this was prophesied before it happened. It has nothing to do with the messiah.
2.Isaiah 2:4 has to do what will happen at the end of the world. When Jesus will judge the remaining people.
3.Isaiah 2:17 Again this has to do with the last days. Read the first part of Isaiah 2 - "And it shall come to pass in the last days"
4.Isaiah 11:1 Jesus did come from David. 1 Chron. 22:8-10This has nothing to do with the messiah but with Solomon’s kingdom still being visible, which it is. It also has to do with Solomon’s reign being one filled with peace, which it was. Another proof the bible was from God.
5.Isaiah 11:2 This simply says the messiah will be wise and filled with the spirit of God. This is noted and fulfilled within the scriptures. (Which have proven not to have been corrupted.)
6.Isaiah 11:4 talks of the end days as the messiah will judge the world. The scriptures say that Jesus will be the judge. My only question to you, are you ready?
7.Isaiah 11:9 This tells of the knowledge of God spreading over the earth after the messiah showed up. It has, everybody knows what the bible is and who Jesus was.
8.Isaiah 11:10 This has happened as well as the Jews are not the only ones who can be saved.
9.Isaiah 11:12 This prophesies about the Jews coming to build the nation of Israel under the hand of God. This has happened as Israel became a nation in 1948! The bible is accurate no doubt. It says nothing about all the Jews it says that Jews will come from the four corners of the earth to make Israel.
10.Isaiah 25: 8 This happened as through Jesus we now have eternal life. There will be no death or sickness in heaven.
11.Isaiah 26:19 Yes the dead shall rise, on the day of judgement. We will all have to give an account...
12.Isaiah 51:11 This has to do with those who have the blood of Jesus on them, the saved. It says the redeemed of the Lord, not the Jewish people. Though Jews can be saved.
13.Isaiah 52:7 He was a messenger of peace, "Blessed are the peacemakers" This tells of the messiah as a person who brings messages of peace and salvation. This was fulfilled through Jesus.
14.Isaiah 52:13-53:5 This is talking directly of the messiah, not the Jews. In fact, Isaiah 53 prophesies so much about Jesus that some Jews have taken it out of their OTs.
15.Isaiah 56:3-7 This was fulfilled. Everybody who wants to can worship God. Why not you?
16. Zechariah 8:23 This has come true. It has nothing to do with spiritual guidance but with Christians realizing that the Jews are blessed by God. Check out the wars that Israel had after becoming a nation. They never should have won but they did.
17.Ezekiel 16:55- This has nothing to do with the messiah. But of Israel coming back to its city after Samaria had. It has to do with the Jew's return from captivity, which also came true.
18-19.Ezekiel 39:9 This is a last days prophecy again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Ezekiel_38-39
20.Ezekiel 40 This ais a measuring of a temple, it does not state that Jesus would rebuild it. Though in the last das the temple will be rebuilt.
21.Zephaniah 3:9 9For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. This does not describe the messiah
22.Jeremiah 31:33 This refers to putting the law in their hearts. Kind of like a conscience.
23.Psalms 37:4Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. This has to do with prayer.
24.These again have either to do with Israelites coming back from captivity or otherwise. None have anything to do with the messiah.

All of these verses were prophecies fulfilled in Jesus, had nothing to do with Jesus, or are about the end times.
If the bible is right about so many prophecies than we have good reason to think that the end time prophecies are right as well. Hope to see you in heaven, I'll pray for you bud.

The book eternity in their hearts documents hundreds of cultures and found that at the root of everyone was one God who had these qualities: God is a personal God.
- He is referred to with masculine grammar and qualities.
- God is believed to live in the sky.
- He has great knowledge and power.
- He created the world.
- God is the author of standards of good and evil.
- Human beings are God's creatures and are expected to live by his standards.
- Human beings have become alienated from God by disobeying his standards.
- Lastly, God has provided a method of overcoming the alienation. Originally this involved sacrificing animals on an altar
of uncut stone.

The east Asians did have one God before every other one. The Chinese 2600 years before Christ, worshipped Shang Ti, before Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism. The Zhou Dynasty took over around1066 B.C. and replaced Shang Ti’s worship with the sky and than other religions followed.

In a region north of Calcutta, India, there lived the Santal people who worshipped elements of nature.
However, before these practices developed, they worshipped Thakur Jiu, the genuine God who created all things.
Although they knew Thakur Jiu was the true God, the tribe forsook worshipping Him and began entering into spiritism
and the worship of lesser gods who ruled over some aspect of creation.

In Ethiopia, the Gedeo people number in the millions and live in different tribes. These people sacrifice to evil spirits out
of fear. However, behind this practice is an older belief in Magano, the one omnipotent creator

The Incas in South America also have this same belief. Alfred Metraux, author of History of the Incas, discovered the
Inca's originally worshipped Viracocha, the Lord, the omnipotent creator of all things.

In Korea, God was referred to as Hananim

I took these examples from this site if you want references: http://www.evidenceandanswers.org/articles/Origin%20of%20Man%27s%20Religion.pdf

Original monotheism supports the bible and denies the evolution of religion from mana first.

This fits in with the bible, Acts 14, "In the past he (God) let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without
testimony." But not with atheism.

Another proof of God.

1.God creates morals: First I have a good reason to believe that man did not create God. Look at my previous post. The first God worshipped by all cultures was the one of the bible. Second, if you look at the Universe or the chaotic world that we live in and were making up god's, would you honestly postulate that a perfectly; loving, good, and forgiving God made this world? No of course not. You would make a god based on human characteristics, which are imperfect (just as this world), such as the roman gods. Thirdly, morals have not changed drastically at all since the birth of civilizations. Cowardice is still not upheld, murder is not held in regard. Since the farthest back history can trace men have written books based on morals that all have sayings such as; don't kill, love, treat others as you would have them treat you, ect.
Since we have good reason to believe that God created man and that he put morals into man (conscience) than we can postulate that God created morals. God said that He wrote His LAW into men's hearts. Of course I can't prove empirically that God created morals (I wasn't there) but atheists are in a conundrum of showing how absolute morals came about. (With atheism there is no way.) Absolute morals are based on a law giving God. (That already narrows it down.)
2. There are morals. This one is obvious. When you argue with someone you argue based on a standard that you think they have broken. A standard, which you presupposed that they knew about. A sort of law that you think they have broken. They, if they are at fault, will try to argue that they have not broken that law or that some exception applies to them.

When looking at the evil in the world, what are you judging on the basis of evil? If there is no law of evil and good then what are you judging on? I can’t know what a crooked line is unless I know what a straight one is. If you feel outraged about murder, than you are siding with God’s idea (justice), but sometimes when you break this moral law yourself, you think that there should be an exception in your case. Now you are sinning (breaking the moral law). Every person, no matter what culture, unless conditioned, believes that murder is wrong, that cowardice is wrong, and that lying is wrong. Some times cowardice or lying can be beneficial, but we still know it is wrong. We have a moral conscience implanted by God. Since we know that morals are not relative (nobody thinks that rape is actually right ((unless brainwashed)) than there is no way to explain morals off as coming from evolution, especially since ancient cultures agreed with the same morals that we do. (Killing is wrong, lying is wrong, empathy is right, ect.)
Atheists can postulate how morals could have come about. No explanation, however, make sense in reality, or in history as God does.

[quote=timbobwaay]The book eternity in their hearts documents hundreds of cultures and found that at the root of everyone was one God who had these qualities: God is a personal God.
- He is referred to with masculine grammar and qualities.
- God is believed to live in the sky.
- He has great knowledge and power.
- He created the world.
- God is the author of standards of good and evil.
- Human beings are God's creatures and are expected to live by his standards.
- Human beings have become alienated from God by disobeying his standards.
- Lastly, God has provided a method of overcoming the alienation. Originally this involved sacrificing animals on an altar
of uncut stone.

The east Asians did have one God before every other one. The Chinese 2600 years before Christ, worshipped Shang Ti, before Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism. The Zhou Dynasty took over around1066 B.C. and replaced Shang Ti’s worship with the sky and than other religions followed.

In a region north of Calcutta, India, there lived the Santal people who worshipped elements of nature.
However, before these practices developed, they worshipped Thakur Jiu, the genuine God who created all things.
Although they knew Thakur Jiu was the true God, the tribe forsook worshipping Him and began entering into spiritism
and the worship of lesser gods who ruled over some aspect of creation.

In Ethiopia, the Gedeo people number in the millions and live in different tribes. These people sacrifice to evil spirits out
of fear. However, behind this practice is an older belief in Magano, the one omnipotent creator

The Incas in South America also have this same belief. Alfred Metraux, author of History of the Incas, discovered the
Inca's originally worshipped Viracocha, the Lord, the omnipotent creator of all things.

In Korea, God was referred to as Hananim

I took these examples from this site if you want references: http://www.evidenceandanswers.org/articles/Origin%20of%20Man%27s%20Religion.pdf

Original monotheism supports the bible and denies the evolution of religion from mana first.

This fits in with the bible, Acts 14, "In the past he (God) let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without
testimony." But not with atheism.

Another proof of God.
[/quote]

Entire post is an [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum]Argument ad populum[/url]. Just because most people believe(d) in a creator does not make it true in any way.

[quote=timbobwaay]1. Isaiah 1:26 is prophesying of Israel's captivity in Babylon. And yes this was prophesied before it happened. It has nothing to do with the messiah.
2.Isaiah 2:4 has to do what will happen at the end of the world. When Jesus will judge the remaining people.
3.Isaiah 2:17 Again this has to do with the last days. Read the first part of Isaiah 2 - "And it shall come to pass in the last days"
4.Isaiah 11:1 Jesus did come from David. 1 Chron. 22:8-10This has nothing to do with the messiah but with Solomon’s kingdom still being visible, which it is. It also has to do with Solomon’s reign being one filled with peace, which it was. Another proof the bible was from God.
5.Isaiah 11:2 This simply says the messiah will be wise and filled with the spirit of God. This is noted and fulfilled within the scriptures. (Which have proven not to have been corrupted.)
6.Isaiah 11:4 talks of the end days as the messiah will judge the world. The scriptures say that Jesus will be the judge. My only question to you, are you ready?
7.Isaiah 11:9 This tells of the knowledge of God spreading over the earth after the messiah showed up. It has, everybody knows what the bible is and who Jesus was.
8.Isaiah 11:10 This has happened as well as the Jews are not the only ones who can be saved.
9.Isaiah 11:12 This prophesies about the Jews coming to build the nation of Israel under the hand of God. This has happened as Israel became a nation in 1948! The bible is accurate no doubt. It says nothing about all the Jews it says that Jews will come from the four corners of the earth to make Israel.
10.Isaiah 25: 8 This happened as through Jesus we now have eternal life. There will be no death or sickness in heaven.
11.Isaiah 26:19 Yes the dead shall rise, on the day of judgement. We will all have to give an account...
12.Isaiah 51:11 This has to do with those who have the blood of Jesus on them, the saved. It says the redeemed of the Lord, not the Jewish people. Though Jews can be saved.
13.Isaiah 52:7 He was a messenger of peace, "Blessed are the peacemakers" This tells of the messiah as a person who brings messages of peace and salvation. This was fulfilled through Jesus.
14.Isaiah 52:13-53:5 This is talking directly of the messiah, not the Jews. In fact, Isaiah 53 prophesies so much about Jesus that some Jews have taken it out of their OTs.
15.Isaiah 56:3-7 This was fulfilled. Everybody who wants to can worship God. Why not you?
16. Zechariah 8:23 This has come true. It has nothing to do with spiritual guidance but with Christians realizing that the Jews are blessed by God. Check out the wars that Israel had after becoming a nation. They never should have won but they did.
17.Ezekiel 16:55- This has nothing to do with the messiah. But of Israel coming back to its city after Samaria had. It has to do with the Jew's return from captivity, which also came true.
18-19.Ezekiel 39:9 This is a last days prophecy again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Ezekiel_38-39
20.Ezekiel 40 This ais a measuring of a temple, it does not state that Jesus would rebuild it. Though in the last das the temple will be rebuilt.
21.Zephaniah 3:9 9For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. This does not describe the messiah
22.Jeremiah 31:33 This refers to putting the law in their hearts. Kind of like a conscience.
23.Psalms 37:4Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. This has to do with prayer.
24.These again have either to do with Israelites coming back from captivity or otherwise. None have anything to do with the messiah.

All of these verses were prophecies fulfilled in Jesus, had nothing to do with Jesus, or are about the end times.
If the bible is right about so many prophecies than we have good reason to think that the end time prophecies are right as well. Hope to see you in heaven, I'll pray for you bud.
[/quote]

[i]The Messiah WILL do this, the Messiah WILL do that'[/i]. Those verses I pointed are what he SHOULD have already done from a Jewish standpoint.

Like:[i] The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)[/i]. Of course, that did not happen.

Care to try again?

[quote]I'll pray for you bud.[/quote]

And I will think for you, bud. (I would wish you luck, but you wouldn't know what to do with it.)

[quote=timbobwaay]1.God creates morals: First I have a good reason to believe that man did not create God. Look at my previous post. The first God worshipped by all cultures was the one of the bible. Second, if you look at the Universe or the chaotic world that we live in and were making up god's, would you honestly postulate that a perfectly; loving, good, and forgiving God made this world? No of course not. You would make a god based on human characteristics, which are imperfect (just as this world), such as the roman gods.[/quote]

Actually your god does have human characteristics. He seems to be a giant sky-man that stands up there and hands out punishments and rewards and such. He also feels emotions such as jealousy.

[quote] Thirdly, morals have not changed drastically at all since the birth of civilizations. Cowardice is still not upheld, murder is not held in regard. Since the farthest back history can trace men have written books based on morals that all have sayings such as; don't kill, love, treat others as you would have them treat you, ect. Since we have good reason to believe that God created man and that he put morals into man (conscience) than we can postulate that God created morals.[/quote]

I could also claim that the FSM created morals. Does that make it any true?

[quote]God said that He wrote His LAW into men's hearts. Of course I can't prove empirically that God created morals (I wasn't there) but atheists are in a conundrum of showing how absolute morals came about. (With atheism there is no way.)[/quote]

Atheism is under no pressure to provide a moral code. It's the lack of a belief. That's it.

And morals come from rights. Rights come from the basics of ownership. Morality is what people prefer. If I don't want you to kill me, I'll label it wrong. ALL people prefer that you don't steal their stuff, therefore all people will label stealing their property as wrong. And they have every right to do so, since they own their property and themselves. All people will label stealing, murdering and enslaving wrong when it's done to them (because they are involuntary by definition).

[quote] Absolute morals are based on a law giving God. (That already narrows it down.)[/quote]

Please back that up.

[quote]2. There are morals. This one is obvious. When you argue with someone you argue based on a standard that you think they have broken. A standard, which you presupposed that they knew about. A sort of law that you think they have broken. They, if they are at fault, will try to argue that they have not broken that law or that some exception applies to them. When looking at the evil in the world, what are you judging on the basis of evil?[/quote]

"Evil", or wrong, is violating someone else's rights.

[quote] If there is no law of evil and good then what are you judging on?[/quote]

I'm judging actions on what I want for myself. If you do something to me that I don't want, I'll label it as wrong.

Stealing is when people take away property without the owner's consent. It's not what the owner wants. And therefore the owner will always label stealing as wrong.

[quote] I can’t know what a crooked line is unless I know what a straight one is. If you feel outraged about murder, than you are siding with God’s idea (justice), but sometimes when you break this moral law yourself, you think that there should be an exception in your case.[/quote]

Bullshit. I don't murder because it's a violation of others' rights. And if I want to regain ownership of myself, I have to respect others' rights or else I'll lose mine.

[quote]Now you are sinning (breaking the moral law). Every person, no matter what culture, unless conditioned, believes that murder is wrong, that cowardice is wrong, and that lying is wrong. Some times cowardice or lying can be beneficial, but we still know it is wrong. We have a moral conscience implanted by God.[/quote]

Any evidence to show this is all implanted by God?

[quote]Since we know that morals are not relative (nobody thinks that rape is actually right ((unless brainwashed)) than there is no way to explain morals off as coming from evolution,[/quote]

Natural selection enabled those animals that didn't violate others' rights to survive and outgrow the savage ones who went around murdering each other.

[quote] especially since ancient cultures agreed with the same morals that we do. (Killing is wrong, lying is wrong, empathy is right, ect.)
Atheists can postulate how morals could have come about. No explanation, however, make sense in reality, or in history as God does. [/quote]

I got a question - if God told you to stab a knife through a child, would you do it? If God commanded you to go out and murder other people would you think it's right?

....
*Waits for a response.

[quote]The temple fell in 70 A.D. So Jesus proved His divinity by prophecying that the temple in Jerusalem would fall![/quote]
If I say the New Orleans Saints will win the Super Bowl next year, does that make me God? If Jesus did exists, this is called a [i]good guess[/i]. I can say the Golden Gate Bridge will fall. Over time it will, not because of my prophetcy but because of active earthquakes within the region.

Read the beginnning of Isaiah 2: 2Now it will come about that
(B)In the last days
Clearly Isaiah is talking about the last days.

I know its a Jewish perspective.

If are conciousness was only from our brains than you would be stuck in determinism. If we were nothing but matter we would be under the laws of nature. So you couldn't theortetically think, it would be a delusion.

Plus if you had a randomly produced computer would you trust anything it printed out? Of course not. How do you know your "thoughts' are true? ("Thoughts" because you cuold not have any if atheism were true)

Okay, if I predicted that the CN tower would fall in fourty years, and it did, would you not concider that amazing?
Plus, another point of that message was to point out the extremely early dating of the gospels. There is no way in that short time span legend could corrupt historical truth when the Jews aree running around trying to discount Christianity. Also Luke quotes in 1 Corinthians from Matthew. Corinithians was written in the early 50's. So Matthew and Mark were written before this.
How could a message about a ressuretion come about in the very town where it happened unless it were true? Keep in mind that Jews and Romans did not want Christianity to spread.

Look at it this way Noor, everything that humans create is based on something that we have alredy had. Teh webcam is absed on the human eye. A fairy is based on a girl with dragonfly wings. Everything we create is based on something that we have already known. This is why I postulate that the early civilizations could not have created God. And how do you explain people living millions of miles appart all worshipping the exact same God?

God is not based on imperfect human standards, such as would have been made if humans created a god based on the earth around them. God does have human characteristics, but thats only because He created us in HIs image. Absolute holiness has to judge absolute unholiness. even atheistic philosophers have noted that this is metaphysically necessary.

Look at it this way Noor, if there is no God and law beyond our own, why could I not do whatever I wanted to, as long as it was under the law? Do I have a moral obligation to be nice to someone? No, so why should I? Why could I not kill someone? If I prefered that. Why should I have to care about the other persons rights? Why not just end it all if this is all there is? Why do you treat humans as more than just randomly produced objects? This is why atheism does not work. Why should humans be held higher than animals, is not that speciesm? How come animals can rape and a person named Joe can't if he can get away with it? why do animals not have moral obligations but we do? Is it not survival of the fittest? Why should we help the poor and not just kill them off if it helps humanity? Who cares about their rights because we don't have an obligation.
Why do we have such as desire for justice to be served?
And how would something like telling the truth be beneficial to someone surviving? If it could get you in deeper crap and could harm you in some way? Lying would be utilizing survival of the fittest. But lying is breaking the moral law.

You can see the problem we can have with an athestic framework. There are no moral obligations and if everything is going to end anyways whats the difference between being a Mother Terresa and a Hitler? Would not helping out other people be wasting my time if they are not allowing the human race to rise to its full power?

Noor I don't think a loving holy God would ever ask me to kill someone, or stab a baby for that matter. If a Christian did say that God told Him this than he is lying or he is nuts in the head.

[quote=timbobwaay]Read the beginnning of Isaiah 2: 2Now it will come about that
(B)In the last days
Clearly Isaiah is talking about the last days.

I know its a Jewish perspective.[/quote]

But it's in the Old Testament, it should have been fulfilled already.

[quote]If are conciousness was only from our brains than you would be stuck in determinism. If we were nothing but matter we would be under the laws of nature. So you couldn't theortetically think, it would be a delusion.

Plus if you had a randomly produced computer would you trust anything it printed out? Of course not. How do you know your "thoughts' are true? ("Thoughts" because you cuold not have any if atheism were true)
[/quote]

What does this have to with anything? And can anybody make any sense of his last sentence?

[quote=timbobwaay]Look at it this way Noor, everything that humans create is based on something that we have alredy had. Teh webcam is absed on the human eye. A fairy is based on a girl with dragonfly wings. Everything we create is based on something that we have already known. This is why I postulate that the early civilizations could not have created God. And how do you explain people living millions of miles appart all worshipping the exact same God?[/quote]

So what about the polytheists? A lot of early civilizations practiced polytheistic beliefs. Native Americans, Scandinavians, Chinese, Indians, Greeks, and many other ancient civilizations were polytheists, in spite of their lands being far away from each other. Does that mean they didn't create their many gods?

[quote=timbobwaay]God is not based on imperfect human standards, such as would have been made if humans created a god based on the earth around them. God does have human characteristics, but thats only because He created us in HIs image. Absolute holiness has to judge absolute unholiness. even atheistic philosophers have noted that this is metaphysically necessary.

Look at it this way Noor, if there is no God and law beyond our own, why could I not do whatever I wanted to, as long as it was under the law?[/quote]

Because you want other people to treat you nicely. If you murdered someone, it's not what they want and therefore they will be angry at you and take revenge. You must be good to others if you want them to be good towards you.

[quote] Do I have a moral obligation to be nice to someone? No, so why should I?[/quote]

You want to murder someone, they will harm you back because it's not what they want. And it is this that makes you not want to murder. No one wants to be harmed, therefore if you don't want your rights violated expect others to feel the same.

[quote] Why could I not kill someone? If I prefered that. Why should I have to care about the other persons rights?[/quote]

Because if you didn't care about their rights, you lose your rights and they can attack you back.

[quote]Why not just end it all if this is all there is?[/quote]

Because people want happiness for themselves. People have hope for a good life. It's not that hard to understand.

[quote]Why do you treat humans as more than just randomly produced objects?[/quote]

Because people have minds that think, control other objects, act and feel. People have rights also. Nonliving objects don't have rights because they don't have minds. People don't want to be harmed, therefore they must understand they must not harm others.

[quote] This is why atheism does not work.[/quote]

False.

[quote] Why should humans be held higher than animals, is not that speciesm?[/quote]

Humans are far more intelligent than other animals and have rights as opposed to most animals. The world before humans came about was a dry and barren land, but we have developed most of it. There's a huge gap between humans and other animals when it comes to several things.

[quote] How come animals can rape and a person named Joe can't if he can get away with it?[/quote]

Most animals don't rape others. Learn about animals and their moral codes.

[quote]why do animals not have moral obligations but we do?[/quote]

Bullshit. Most intelligent animals do have moral codes. You don't see dogs going out and murdering other dogs for no reason or apes throwing heavy rocks at each other for fun and letting the others bleed to death, do you?

[quote]Is it not survival of the fittest? Why should we help the poor and not just kill them off if it helps humanity?[/quote]

Poor people still have rights, as long as they aren't violating someone else's rights. You're just attacking a huge strawman here.

[quote] Who cares about their rights because we don't have an obligation.[/quote]

If you want others to be nice to you, you must be nice to them. If you want your rights preserved, respect others' rights or you'll lose yours.

[quote]Why do we have such as desire for justice to be served?[/quote]

People don't want to be stolen from. If I stole from someone, the person by definition doesn't want his stuff to be stolen, therefore the person will be mad at me because I did something he didn't want.

[quote]And how would something like telling the truth be beneficial to someone surviving? If it could get you in deeper crap and could harm you in some way? Lying would be utilizing survival of the fittest. But lying is breaking the moral law.[/quote]

If the person is admitting to say, violating someone else's rights, the victim will get his justice after the person admitted to the truth. It's not that hard to understand.

[quote] You can see the problem we can have with an athestic framework. There are no moral obligations and if everything is going to end anyways whats the difference between being a Mother Terresa and a Hitler? Would not helping out other people be wasting my time if they are not allowing the human race to rise to its full power? [/quote]

Bullshit. There are moral obligations. You respect my rights, I'll respect yours. The world is not ending tomorrow - I have many years to live and I want happiness, and if I want that I must respect others and treat them fairly.

[quote]Noor I don't think a loving holy God would ever ask me to kill someone, or stab a baby for that matter. If a Christian did say that God told Him this than he is lying or he is nuts in the head.[/quote]

What the fuck are you on about? Your God kills every firstborn child and there are about a hundred other murders committed by your God in the buybull. Do you think it was right for God to kill those babies?

I'm going to leave it at this...
Noor, Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life. He wants to use you in a wonderful way. But it takes searching after truth on your own part. Whoever is reading this, God has a plan for you too. But first you must admit that you need His help. Everyone has needs in their life. Don't let pride stop you from reaching your potential.
God bless, I'll pray for all of you!
We might meet in heaven.

He loves all of you,
God bless.

Two good books to weigh evidences:
Lee Strobel- The case for Christ
Lee Strobel- The Case for a Creator

[quote=timbobwaay]I'm going to leave it at this...Noor, Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life. He wants to use you in a wonderful way. But it takes searching after truth on your own part. Whoever is reading this, God has a plan for you too. But first you must admit that you need His help. Everyone has needs in their life. Don't let pride stop you from reaching your potential.
God bless, I'll pray for all of you!
We might meet in heaven.[/quote]

Wow...that's it? And I'll think for you. We might even meet in the Pastafarian beer volcano and stripper factory! :evil:

[quote=timbobwaay]He loves all of you,
God bless.[/quote]

May His Noodly Appendage touch you some day, too.

[quote=timbobwaay]Two good books to weigh evidences:
Lee Strobel- The case for Christ
Lee Strobel- The Case for a Creator[/quote]

Lee Strobel has been debunked by Caseagainstfaith:

http://www.caseagainstfaith.com

Quote:

Without anywhere to turn the atheists now has to say that the Universe came out of nothing. I mean not just empty space but absolutely nothing.

Alright dude seriously, I think we have the right to say the Universe came from nothing considering your God did too. I mean think, as many times as this argument has been used, if you're so concerned where the universe came from in our view, can you explain where god came from? I mean seriously, don't even try to pull the bullshit other religious figures use: "He was always there, he is the alpha and omega"

The fact of the matter is, you can't explain it, as much as you can say of where your god came from, is pretty much what we can say about our universe. We have theories, and i understand some aren't excepted, and some are. I don't believe in the infamous "Big Bang Theory" myself, but i actually consider believing that than believing that some magical person, "god", Came outta nowhere, and said "Let me create a universe in which beings can exist under my creation and worship me." It just doesn't happen like that my friend.

By the way, from the looks of your blog, it seems you were pretty happy when you turned to religion. But did you know that alot of people are happier when they get out? I know i was, when i was a devout christian, i did everything that was commanded of me from this "God" and his bible. But In The End i was so depressed, suicide was a couple weeks away. My only depression problems now are that religious people like you, try to always disprove me, shut me off, disown me, and that MY very own FAMILY, disowned me since i became an atheist. I'm alot happier now than i was way back when (About two years ago actually...lol). Life is great other than that.

Relgion is a drug itself. You become addicted to it, do anything to get that good feeling from it. You are controlled by it. I know, cuz i once took that drug. Atheism is my rehab.