your god will condemm me to an eternity in hell for 70+ years of denial? That is definatly the guy I wanna worship. Thank you, you scared me into submission.

Show me proof he exists. No bible verses or anything of the sort. Show me scientific fact. And don't ask me to prove he doesn't exist if you can't even prove the thing you worship with all you being exists.

I choose to believe he doesn't exist, because it doesn't fit into my frame of mind and personality. Granted I do contemplate whether many supernatural ideas, but I weight the validity against fallacy, and pick whichever outweighs the other.

I'm sorry I don't sucumb to other people's wills as easily as you do. I'm sorry I accually think for myself. I'm sorry I choos my own path and life, and not some predetermined life some "God" chose.

If your god will condemm me for that for all eternity, then I feel sorrow for his followers.

[quote]Show me proof he exists[/quote]

Dear Patches, what proofs do you want that God exists? If you want something supernatural- you have miracles, many miracles. I am certain that you have heard about them.
Science can't say that there is a God, but it can say that there is a great power in the universe that controls all the processes in it. Even Albert Einstein came to that conclusion.
Without a controling power you have a big mess and a chaos. Even if the processes in the universe began somehow, there needed to be a power that caused it. We call him God.

Patches,

[quote]your god will condemm me to an eternity in hell for 70+ years of denial? That is definatly the guy I wanna worship. Thank you, you scared me into submission.[/quote]
70+ years? Isn't this supposed to be a teenagers forum? Or did you mean 7?

It's not your denial that makes you go to Hell. It's your unrepented sin, which is an abomination to God.

[quote]Show me proof he exists. No bible verses or anything of the sort. Show me scientific fact. And don't ask me to prove he doesn't exist if you can't even prove the thing you worship with all you being exists.[/quote]
That's an unreasonable criteria. Science is by definition the study of the natural world, not the study of the supernatural. "Proving" God scientifically isn't the objective of science, nor is it even possible.

Of course, as a theist, I can point to scientific [i]evidence[/i] for God. If you're asking for [i]proof[/i] though, it's not there yet.

[quote]I choose to believe he doesn't exist, because it doesn't fit into my frame of mind and personality.[/quote]
If he did exist, would it not be worth changing your frame of mind and personality?

[quote]Granted I do contemplate whether many supernatural ideas, but I weight the validity against fallacy, and pick whichever outweighs the other.[/quote]
So the concept of a creator is a fallacy, huh?

[quote]I'm sorry I don't sucumb to other people's wills as easily as you do. I'm sorry I accually think for myself.[/quote]
As a Christian, I think for myself and choose for myself what to believe. Why do you think this type of thinking is exclusive to atheism?

[quote]I'm sorry I choos my own path and life, and not some predetermined life some "God" chose.[/quote]
Of course, "predetermined life" is all up for interpretation. Personally, I believe in free will, and that none of our daily lives are predetermined.

[quote]If your god will condemm me for that for all eternity, then I feel sorrow for his followers[/quote]
Well, that seems quite silly. Why would you feel sorry for people that are getting the better end of the deal?

Thank you, you scared me into submission. Frankly speaking patches, don't be scared into submission... Please don't... I would much rather have you choose your way and ask God to help you than to have you submit because I scared you...

You said show me God exists... and I ask you show me there is no God. I know you have already said that argument. But what ever it is you who choose to believe in no God and I choose to believe there is God. and that is good and true what you said... "because it doesn't fit into my frame of mind and personality." very true because God cannot fit oyur personality and mind. He is out of your frame of mind.

Trust me... I didn't succumb to any ones will. Just the way you decided there was no God in the same way I decided there was God. If you say that I succmbed to one's will then I can say confidently that you also succumbed to some one's will. If you say that you actually think for yourself then I say that I also think for myself. But friend, you cannot and you will find out that you never choose your own path and life. The bile does say that some are pre determined not to believe but also the bible says that everyone will have a chance to know there is a God.

My God does not condemn any one to hell. Know this... Hell was not made for any man to live in. It was for satan because he chose to disobey God even though He saw God and saw all his glory. When you go to hell God is weeping for you and he is sad. But he is rigtheous to his own words and truthful to himself. So when he says that people who don't love me will go to hell he will stick by it even if it means throwing you into hell...

Trust me friend... don't feel sorrow for His followers... feel sorry for yourself... Remember this though... one day you will think about this conversation I had with you and you will wish that you could have changed... but by then it is too late... and nothing can change... you still have time to know him and follow him. not because I forced you but because you found him. Earnestly just pray and ask him. Accept your weakness and say you are a sinner and invite him into your life... Don't be forced to do it but do it just to know the truth... because deep down patches... u know the truth... u r denying it because something happened to you and things didn't go the way you expected it to go... now you are bitter and the only way you can run from that bitterness is by denying the truth and it satifies you... But as p-dunn says... think about it... Isn't it much much better that you follow Him now than not to follow him and then when you die you see He exists... The bible says that... It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God...

Goddamn, when does this become a cult? Cause I think this bullshit should be addressed, and people get all uptight with the semantics.

Pascal's Wager... weak... seriously weak... This doesn't take into account the infinitely many other possible gods which may have different or even directly opposing values to your own(or even the potential that your 'satan' wrote the bible to trick us). Each potential God is infinitely unlikely under Pascal's Wager, and thus picking one to avoid the vonsequences is kinda silly.

"The bile does say that some are pre determined not to believe but also the bible says that everyone will have a chance to know there is a God."

This doesn't make sense.

"When you go to hell God is weeping for you and he is sad. But he is rigtheous to his own words and truthful to himself. So when he says that people who don't love me will go to hell he will stick by it even if it means throwing you into hell..."

Right, that's not petulant. Most people, when love isn't returned, move on. God throws you in eternal fire. Glad to see he's mature.

"But friend, you cannot and you will find out that you never choose your own path and life."

So we have... no choice in life? And yet we go to hell for our choices....?

[quote=AgnosticAtheist1]"When you go to hell God is weeping for you and he is sad. But he is rigtheous to his own words and truthful to himself. So when he says that people who don't love me will go to hell he will stick by it even if it means throwing you into hell..."

Right, that's not petulant. Most people, when love isn't returned, move on. God throws you in eternal fire. Glad to see he's mature.
[/quote]

You took the words out of my mouth! God is like a angry ex- girlfriend you can't get rid of!

[quote=JoshHickman][quote=AgnosticAtheist1]"When you go to hell God is weeping for you and he is sad. But he is rigtheous to his own words and truthful to himself. So when he says that people who don't love me will go to hell he will stick by it even if it means throwing you into hell..."

Right, that's not petulant. Most people, when love isn't returned, move on. God throws you in eternal fire. Glad to see he's mature.
[/quote]

You took the words out of my mouth! God is like a angry ex- girlfriend you can't get rid of! [/quote]

Lol, agreed.

[quote=Michael_17]

Dear Patches, what proofs do you want that God exists? If you want something supernatural- you have miracles, many miracles. I am certain that you have heard about them.
Science can't say that there is a God, but it can say that there is a great power in the universe that controls all the processes in it. Even Albert Einstein came to that conclusion.
Without a controling power you have a big mess and a chaos. Even if the processes in the universe began somehow, there needed to be a power that caused it. We call him God.
[/quote]

look, I don't deny the fact that their [i]could[/i] have been a creator, in a sense, but very unlikely that he/she/it is all powerfull and all knowing. We can create life now. According to you that makes us gods. All I am saying is that I find it very very unlikely that such an all powerfull being exists, from lack of evidence, so I choos to not believe in it. I may have come off strong, but I meant no disrespect to anyone, I was only trying to make point.

[quote=P-Dunn]Patches,

[quote]your god will condemm me to an eternity in hell for 70+ years of denial? That is definatly the guy I wanna worship. Thank you, you scared me into submission.[/quote]
70+ years? Isn't this supposed to be a teenagers forum? Or did you mean 7?[b]W I meant it as a lifetime.[/b]

It's not your denial that makes you go to Hell. It's your unrepented sin, which is an abomination to God.[b]And in denying god I do not repent for my sins, at least not in the same sense as xians do.[/b]

[quote]Show me proof he exists. No bible verses or anything of the sort. Show me scientific fact. And don't ask me to prove he doesn't exist if you can't even prove the thing you worship with all you being exists.[/quote]
That's an unreasonable criteria. Science is by definition the study of the natural world, not the study of the supernatural. "Proving" God scientifically isn't the objective of science, nor is it even possible.

Of course, as a theist, I can point to scientific [i]evidence[/i] for God. If you're asking for [i]proof[/i] though, it's not there yet.[b]All I am saying is that you worship something that, I think, has a hight inprobability of existing, no disrespect to you though. I simply look at the evidence presented to me, and pick the one I think is the most logical.[/b]

[quote]I choose to believe he doesn't exist, because it doesn't fit into my frame of mind and personality.[/quote]
If he did exist, would it not be worth changing your frame of mind and personality?[b]I never said I wouldn't change my frame of mind. If enough evidence proved my beliefs wrong I would change them, but I have yet to see that.[/b]

[quote]Granted I do contemplate whether many supernatural ideas, but I weight the validity against fallacy, and pick whichever outweighs the other.[/quote]
So the concept of a creator is a fallacy, huh?[b]Yes, because you are presented with an infinite chain of creators. What is wrong with the universe having always been here?[/b]

[quote]I'm sorry I don't sucumb to other people's wills as easily as you do. I'm sorry I accually think for myself.[/quote]
As a Christian, I think for myself and choose for myself what to believe. Why do you think this type of thinking is exclusive to atheism?[b] I was refering to how many xians blindly follow their faith without any critical thinking[/b]

[quote]I'm sorry I choos my own path and life, and not some predetermined life some "God" chose.[/quote]
Of course, "predetermined life" is all up for interpretation. Personally, I believe in free will, and that none of our daily lives are predetermined.[b]But yet "God" is supposed to be omniscient, so he knows if we go to hell or not.[/b]

[quote]If your god will condemm me for that for all eternity, then I feel sorrow for his followers[/quote]
Well, that seems quite silly. Why would you feel sorry for people that are getting the better end of the deal?[b]ok, that was stupid to say[/b][/quote]

You're rediculous. You make far too many assumptions about atheists and that needs to stop before you can come anywhere near convincing us of your magical fairy thing. You never were an atheist. That is the most rediculous theistic argument and it is truly immature and annoying. Atheists don't become theists unless evidence is presented for God's existence and because there is only evidence against God's existence, you never would have started believing in It. None of us want to spend an eternity with [i]your[/i] God. Your God is a dick. I would rather spend an eternity in Hell because at least I will know that I had the strength to stand up against that evil tyrant you call Dad. You're too weak. You're afraid, as you should be, seeing as your God enjoys human blood so much. I think it's time for you to grow up. God is a childish idea that is holding the progress of our species back. The reason atheists laugh at theists is because theists don't accept science and do believe the Bible and because of that, we know you believe the Earth is flat, the Earth is the center of the universe, the Sun is only miles [i]above[/i] the Earth, and a great number of other rediculous claims the Bible makes. Let me ask you, have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever actually sat down and read it. I'm guessing that's a no because it would either send you to prison for following it, or it would make you an atheist. You can send one quote our way all you want, but your preacher pointed that out to you. You haven't actually ever read the Bible. How about you do that, and then tell us about your God. We'd love to listen.

To be fair, he certainly could have been an atheist. But he would have been an atheist as in a natural-borne atheist, or an apathetic atheist. Such atheists could succumb to the emotional rhetoric of religion. But the intellectual atheists - those that are atheists because they have actively engaged in trying to understand it, have debated it with theists and know their religion like the back of their hand - it's these kinds of atheists, which surely most if not all of us here are, that would never become Christians. He could never have been that kind of atheist.

To the original post - you've given us nothing to even begin trying to convince us - all you've done is said 'look guys, this is just the way it is. You just have to trust that I'm right, cuz I mean - don't you WANT there to be something after you die? So you should believe it cuz it'll feel better'. It's nothing but one giant, hollow emotional appeal. That kind of tactic only works on young children who haven't yet had the development and experience to know to question the things that are drilled into their heads. This is, of course, how most of the Christian population comes to be Christians. :\

As for the Bible quotes - there's no sense tossing them at me. To use them as evidence requires the a priori assumption that god exists, and that the Bible is his holy word. This results in a circular argument. Think of it this way - could I use lines from the Hindu Vedas or the Muslim Koran to convince you to convert to either of these religions? Of course not. So why do you waste your time throwing Bible quotes to people who don't believe the Bible is anything more than an old piece of literature?

Last time I decided to 'give Christianity a try' again, I just became a more intellectually satisfied atheist, and moved closer to Strong Atheism. I can assure you, I laughed at the last paragraph, where you tried to invoke fear to persuade me that I should become a theist. It's like me threatening to hit you with my invisible hammer over teh internet. It's not going to do a damn thing. I can assure you, I lose no sleep at night worrying about what will happen when I die. I know. My brain will lose the oxygen it needs to survive and will die. When the brain dies, I will cease to exist. The end. There is nothing after - there couldn't be, our identity, our being, is all dependent on the brain.

If there is such a thing as god,
why would he let bad things happen?
droughts, floods, cyclones, fires.
murder, rape, bullying.
sickness and disease.
^^ to name a few.
There is [i]no one[/i] watching over us.

[quote]If there is such a thing as god,
why would he let bad things happen?
droughts, floods, cyclones, fires.
murder, rape, bullying.
sickness and disease.
^^ to name a few.
There is no one watching over us.[/quote]

Athesist answer: Because its irrational.

Chrsitian answer: 'Cause he loves us!

[i][i]I know that this is an aethiest forum but let me say that God exists. It doesn't matter what you think or say and how boldly you say it but He exists[/i]

Even if a God does exist, what basis is there to attach the masculine pronoun to such a concept?
[i]
One day when all this will come to an end and when you will die you will stand before him.[/i]

How can you stand before him when you are dead. Please answer my following question on the soul which supposedly survives death. ou must have failed philosophy badly. The Bible is not evidence. Quoting some Bronze Age mythology will not help your case for the afterlife. The soul is only defined by theologians based on attributes of which it is not. The ontology of the "soul" is bound to a logical fallacy known as Loki's Wager.

Loki was a trickster God of Norse Mythology (emphasis on the word mythology, just like the Christian God or Yahweh or Allah) who made a bet with some dwarves on the precondition that should he lose, they would decapitate him. He agreed only on the basis that should he lose, they could only take his head, not his neck.

Of course, he lost, and the dwarves demanded to kill him. But he kept insisting they could not take his neck, something to which they had agreed. Seeing as they could not take his head without taking his neck, they were forced to drop the matter.

This is the Loki's Wager Fallacy: A concept cannot be defined ergo cannot be discussed.

Indeed, much of religion seems bound to this concept. The soul being a prime example. The soul is usually defined by theologians as a self-aware ETHEREAL substance unique to a living being
The ethereal is realm is defined of lacking in matter or indeed any physical substance. Thus how can we empirically demonstrate it's existence when by our own definition it does not? There is no empirecal evidence to suggest that any part of us survives death, much as we can observe the gruesome effect it has on the brain, the physical substance which generates all the properties a soul is deemed to have.

Something cannot be defined by it's negative if it lacks positive attributes like the soul, especially if it is supposedly outside our comprehension of existence by which definition it would simply be no more than a made up concept. This is why the afterlife is a meaningless concept based on worthless epstimology.

[i]Trust me... Think about it. I am not syaing that you have to trust in Jesus now. I know as you read this most of you are offended. Most of you are already saying things in there mind about me. Most of you are already critizing me. I have once been an aethist and I have did all the things you do now. I have had the state of mind that God does not exist. But in every one of you there exists a fear which always comes back to you.[/i]

Prove it. Why should I trust you? On what basis do you state that atheism is fear based. What do I have to fear?

[i]can you answer me the question with ocnfidence in your hearts that nothing will happen to you when you die. Think about this when you lie in bed; What will happen if I die tonight? Where will I be if I die tonight? There has to be an answer to it. There is still hope for every one of you that comes to this site.[/i]

See my long post above. I can say with 99.999% certainty that I shall not survive death.

[i]One day you will stand before him and He will ask you why did you do this? and trust me friends that you will not have an answer to say to him. Compare this; 70 years of denying God and then an eternity of hell where there is no light, where darkness is there everywhere, where there is pain and no laugh, where you will regret for the rest of your life that you didn't believe in Jesus and where you will be tormented...[/i]

Prove IT! Why can you not get this through you thick skull? The bible is not evidence for anything. It is bronze age mythology written 2000 years ago. Again, we return to on what basis you state that God is masculine, and how one can stand before him once dead. How can I answer him when speech is merely a brain function when is lost when that part of the brain decomposes? How can i go to an eternity of hell, when by the very definition of the concept's ontology, hell does not exist. I do not think you understand that threatening an atheist with hell is like telling a 40 year old man that santa claus will not brin him presents this year. How can there be pain in hell when pain is merely an expression of electrochemical messages of the brain which are interpreted by the receptors of the body? That does not make any sense. There cannot be pain if there is no physical existence (hence by ontology there can be no existence per se without physical existence).