Under God/In Got We Trust

AgnosticAtheist1
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Under God/In Got We Trust

In 1954, President Eisenhower signed into law the addition of “under god” to the pledge of allegiance. While his full reason can only be speculated at, one of the major ideas behind it was to signify a difference between the United States, and the “godless communists”. This makes sense because of course, since a society that was communist (or at least purported to be) was secular, and pursued general atheism, committed numerous despicable deeds, all secular societies must be evil. Similarly, since Adolf Hitler had only one testicle (or at least was purported to), all people with only one testicle believe in ethnic cleansing.

As I do not know absolutely everything about the Cold War, I will assume in Eisenhower’s favor, that changing our pledge somehow helped us to bring down Soviet Russia. But now, in this day, is it necessary? Is it fair? Is it constitutional? Is it legal? Well it certainly isn’t necessary. Is God so fickle that unless you proclaim your faith to the world, it’ll be hell to pay, literally? No, in fact, even if we are to accept the bible as true, proclaiming your faith publicly was frowned upon by Jesus, quoted as saying “thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 5:5-6) and “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven…But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: “(Matthew 6:1,3). Again, that hardly matters, as we should hardly bend the laws to discriminate against any minority on what a 2000 year old book says to do.

To the next. Is it fair? Well, the current pledge proclaims a belief that the nations actions are under God, the monotheistic belief, most commonly associated with Christianity. The reciting of the pledge is not mandatory, but is it fair to assume the majority belief and ask others to remain silent? Taking out those 2 words will not prevent people from believing what they will, nor will it require them to say anything antithetical to their beliefs. Prayer is legal in school so long as it is not “government fostered”, led, required, sanctioned, scheduled or suggested by school officials. Schools should remain neutral towards any one religion, just as towards any race or gender or culture. Here’s a surefire way to test discrimination. Imagine if the pledge read “one nation, under Allah” or “one nation, under the Pantheon”, or “one nation, under Buddha”. Suddenly the discrimination becomes apparent.

But most importantly, is this addition to the pledge constitutional? Legal? Section 4, Article 1 of the California Constitution Bill of Rights reads “Free exercise and enjoyment of religion without discrimination or preference are guaranteed.” Allowing just those 2 words to remain puts discrimination in the pledge, and puts a preference on monotheistic religions, namely those with a God named “God”. Since Islam worships Allah, and Judaism, Jehovah, the only remaining option is God, along with the many offshoots thereof. But really, to go one step further, why have a pledge? Is it really logical to expect 5 year olds to be able to understand the gravity of pledging allegiance to a country? What about to have it recited every day? Isn’t a pledge something you take once and follow forever? It’s nothing illegal, but does it really make sense?

Furthermore, the same argument applies to 'In God We Trust'. It implies something about an entire group of people, all of whom it does not apply to. In legal cases, being required to affirm belief in God has been made illegal in politics(in most states, although some still require an affirmation technically), as well as in all public affairs, and in many states, privately run enterprises. Yet here remains a blatant violation of freedom of religion. Not only symbolic, it is also used as an argument by more ignorant people(or by politicians, to gain the votes of such people), to state that America is a 'Christian nation'. In the interest of continuity, both of these phrases ought be removed from their respective areas.


Derevirn
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You should say that you're a

You should say that you're a muslim and he's going to hell for being a Christian, how would that be for a change? He'd be obliged to respect your beliefs... :) (my father actually used the "I'm a muslim" line sometimes, when confronted with the usual "why don't you go to church?" line... it's hillarious...)


AgnosticAtheist1
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then apparantly, you don't

then apparantly, you don't know me :) well, except the knows everything part.

-There is no sin save faith


Greg
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wait... are you the brother?

wait... are you the brother? i am confused


Cody
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hahagood job! you confused

haha
good job! you confused greg.
that deserves a prize


Greg
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haha, cody shut up. its not

haha, cody shut up. its not as much as confusion as perhaps unknowing


Cody
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ah, of course. but i think

ah, of course.
but i think he was indicating that he also knits, plays chess, etc. like her brother.


Greg
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ohh so i may have just

ohh so i may have just misunderstood him


Greg
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hahaha i stumped you now!

hahaha i stumped you now!


AgnosticAtheist1
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bingo! -There is no sin save

bingo!

-There is no sin save faith


Greg
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so, anyone wanna talk bout

so, anyone wanna talk bout bush? lol


Voided
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its hard to do that though,

its hard to do that though, everytime I ask people if they would support "Under Jesus", "Under No God", or "Under White People" no one comments on it and talks about another point.


AgnosticAtheist1
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Under White people

Doesn't quite fit. I always joke about 'Under Canada'. Think about it, it's true :)


Greg
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under canada. that sounds

under canada. that sounds fun. i am thinking just loudly one nation under satan.


KimTheFaerieFreak
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under canada? I LOVE CANADA!

under canada? I LOVE CANADA!


Greg
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hey now, how about under

hey now, how about under antarctica?


KimTheFaerieFreak
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...no way.

...no way.

Canda....NO FRANCE! or England.

*edit* I am an idiot. CANADA


Greg
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hmmm, what is canda?

hmmm, what is canda?


KimTheFaerieFreak
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I am an idiot

I am an idiot


blood pig
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Hey. Fuckers. UNDER

Hey. Fuckers. UNDER STEVIE.

There we go. Problem solved :) hahahha


KimTheFaerieFreak
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That works. I can live with

That works. I can live with that


AgnosticAtheist1
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nono

Under Canada as in... physically under Canada. Except Alask but there's nothing important up ther.


blood pig
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I'd execute you if you

I'd execute you if you wouldn't be able to live with it.
Totally kidding :)


KimTheFaerieFreak
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Anyone who doesn't shall be

Anyone who doesn't shall be impaled with my knitting needles

which are SHINEY! and PURPLE DAMNIT!


blood pig
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Damn.Screw injections.

Damn.
Screw lethal injections.


KimTheFaerieFreak
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... can I rule the

... can I rule the world

pleeeeease. *acts all cute and innocent*


Greg
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I AM MINDSET TO RULE NOT

I AM MINDSET TO RULE NOT YOU!


Nick
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Okay guys, enough spam.

Okay guys, enough spam. Don't make me delete posts.


KimTheFaerieFreak
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Just because today I decided

Just because today I decided to be a bitch and correct everyone one.

"Real spam is generally e-mail advertising for some product sent to a mailing list or newsgroup."

We weren't advertizing anything, we were just being idiots who can't stay on topic.


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KimTheFaerieFreak wrote:Just

[quote=KimTheFaerieFreak]Just because today I decided to be a bitch and correct everyone one.

"Real spam is generally e-mail advertising for some product sent to a mailing list or newsgroup."

We weren't advertizing anything, we were just being idiots who can't stay on topic.[/quote]

"Stay on topic, Stay on topic" - from an avatar of a mod on another forum, think star wars


KimTheFaerieFreak
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definatly. I suck at staying

definatly. I suck at staying on topic. But I will try, being the good kid I am.


Voided
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oh they don't give me powers

oh they don't give me powers ;) I was just reminded of that pic, I think it is from the spam mod on the forum.


Greg
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ok on topic..... in god we

ok on topic..... in god we trust.... Now, the country was built on.. freedom of religion, among other things. why do you think they would decide to put this in the pledge when they KNOW it will offend some people?


UltraWill
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Why nit pick on that when

Why nit pick on that when the next phrase concerns a much bigger issue?


JoshHickman
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Because when you pledge

Because when you pledge allegiance you are promising to like them. If you don't like the promise, you don't have to make it. Simple contractual law. I hate to preempt people, but also I will say that a pledge such as the one given in schools CAN be a legally binding contract. If there is proof you said the pledge, then went to serve another country not directly loyal to America (England, for instance), you would be criminally liable, or as liable as you can get for breaching a contract with the government (normally contracts are civil law).

That is why you nitpick.


UltraWill
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What I'm saynig is there's

What I'm saynig is there's no reason to single out "Under God" when the entire system is flawwed. It really makes a lot of atheists look petty.


HeliosOfTheSun
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Every day we say the pledge

Every day we say the pledge in 1st hour, I never say "One Nation under God" I just remain silent, then the kids that sit next to me, look at me then sit down. Course my teacher notices, but doesnt say anything. Public school is fun.


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I didn't check the first

I didn't check the first page, but if it was already posted it's worth looking at again. Bigger problems with the pledge than whether or not god is named.

http://members.ij.net/rex/pledge2.html

Seig heil Bush!

And I just didn't say the pledge of allegiance. After about 10th grade people just stopped saying it. They made us stand up and I got some ridicule for trying to read a book during the pledge, but nobody actually pedged allegiance to anything, god or not.


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One of the arguements my

One of the arguements my brother uses for the pledge is that no one is forced to say it. Reading this, I can see that isn't aways true.

Get this. To show my brother (who is Jewish) what its like, I asked him if he would mind if it said "under Jesus" instead of "under god." :? Hypocritical prick. He said they were completely different situations. The only difference I perceive is the number of people being offended. 40% offended by "under jesus" and 10% by "under god" I think that thats enough people that he should shut up.

Even if you aren't forced to say it, its still wrong. Thats the samearguement they use for prayer in school. that no one will be forced to say it. Yeah, but people will feel like they should in order to fit in or whatever.

The idea back in the 50s was to unite the people against communism. Instead of uniting us under democracy, they chose uniting us under god against the atheist commies. Yeahhhhhhhh. Great.

I've hear conservatives (my grandparents) say that "under god" is in the constitution. Not true. Then they said oh wait it's in the Bill of Rights. Wrong again. God is mentioned several times in the declaration,but that document holds no leagal purpose.


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Who cares? The whole issue

Who cares? The whole issue is like arguing over whether the Princess in Mario should be called Toadstool or Peach.

(For the record I still call her Princess Toadstool. Always PRINCESS Toadstool)


AgnosticAtheist1
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I fail to understand the

I fail to understand the analogy. We are not swearing allegiance to a country under either names.


Sir-Think-A-Lot
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AgnosticAtheist1 wrote:I

[quote=AgnosticAtheist1]I fail to understand the analogy. We are not swearing allegiance to a country under either names.[/quote]

My poin is: who cares? Is it really hurting you?

Besides how does that effect what is(or isnt) written on our money?


AgnosticAtheist1
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it isn't physically harming

it isn't physically harming me, no, except perhaps by creating a culture which sees no problem at all with employing discriminatory practices on the basis of religion. Plus, on an intellectual integrity level., it means I am implying consent with something I don't agree with.

Besides, any argument you can make for the unimportantness of it, I can make for the unimportantness of having it. For example, why is it so important that it say IN the pledge? does it harm you to take it our?

The fact that it is the status quo should give it no preference.


DLSS
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Bryan T wrote:One of my

[quote=Bryan T]One of my friends has come up with the simples way to make everyone on this subject....Just make it gods or all gods instead of just god.

[/quote]
how about useing the old ASU slogan : "one nation [b]over[/b] god "
(in the sense of we're above any god , instead of beneath em ....)


AgnosticAtheist1
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no. That would instead be

no. That would instead be discriminatory against theists. We want non-discrimination, not discrimination which happens to coincide with out opinions. That would be like Black nationalism being super-imposed over white nationalism. Both are a form of bigotry.


Sir-Think-A-Lot
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AgnosticAtheist1

[quote=AgnosticAtheist1]Besides, any argument you can make for the unimportantness of it, I can make for the unimportantness of having it. For example, why is it so important that it say IN the pledge? does it harm you to take it our?[/quote]

And I would agree with you. If Congress decided to take it out that is perfectly within their power and dosnt effect me one bit. I simply dont see what all the fuss is either way.


AgnosticAtheist1
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sometimes, principle alone

sometimes, principle alone is enough. In fact, for me, always :)