Under God/In Got We Trust
Offline In 1954, President Eisenhower signed into law the addition of “under god” to the pledge of allegiance. While his full reason can only be speculated at, one of the major ideas behind it was to signify a difference between the United States, and the “godless communists”. This makes sense because of course, since a society that was communist (or at least purported to be) was secular, and pursued general atheism, committed numerous despicable deeds, all secular societies must be evil. Similarly, since Adolf Hitler had only one testicle (or at least was purported to), all people with only one testicle believe in ethnic cleansing.
As I do not know absolutely everything about the Cold War, I will assume in Eisenhower’s favor, that changing our pledge somehow helped us to bring down Soviet Russia. But now, in this day, is it necessary? Is it fair? Is it constitutional? Is it legal? Well it certainly isn’t necessary. Is God so fickle that unless you proclaim your faith to the world, it’ll be hell to pay, literally? No, in fact, even if we are to accept the bible as true, proclaiming your faith publicly was frowned upon by Jesus, quoted as saying “thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 5:5-6) and “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven…But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: “(Matthew 6:1,3). Again, that hardly matters, as we should hardly bend the laws to discriminate against any minority on what a 2000 year old book says to do.
To the next. Is it fair? Well, the current pledge proclaims a belief that the nations actions are under God, the monotheistic belief, most commonly associated with Christianity. The reciting of the pledge is not mandatory, but is it fair to assume the majority belief and ask others to remain silent? Taking out those 2 words will not prevent people from believing what they will, nor will it require them to say anything antithetical to their beliefs. Prayer is legal in school so long as it is not “government fostered”, led, required, sanctioned, scheduled or suggested by school officials. Schools should remain neutral towards any one religion, just as towards any race or gender or culture. Here’s a surefire way to test discrimination. Imagine if the pledge read “one nation, under Allah” or “one nation, under the Pantheon”, or “one nation, under Buddha”. Suddenly the discrimination becomes apparent.
But most importantly, is this addition to the pledge constitutional? Legal? Section 4, Article 1 of the California Constitution Bill of Rights reads “Free exercise and enjoyment of religion without discrimination or preference are guaranteed.” Allowing just those 2 words to remain puts discrimination in the pledge, and puts a preference on monotheistic religions, namely those with a God named “God”. Since Islam worships Allah, and Judaism, Jehovah, the only remaining option is God, along with the many offshoots thereof. But really, to go one step further, why have a pledge? Is it really logical to expect 5 year olds to be able to understand the gravity of pledging allegiance to a country? What about to have it recited every day? Isn’t a pledge something you take once and follow forever? It’s nothing illegal, but does it really make sense?
Furthermore, the same argument applies to 'In God We Trust'. It implies something about an entire group of people, all of whom it does not apply to. In legal cases, being required to affirm belief in God has been made illegal in politics(in most states, although some still require an affirmation technically), as well as in all public affairs, and in many states, privately run enterprises. Yet here remains a blatant violation of freedom of religion. Not only symbolic, it is also used as an argument by more ignorant people(or by politicians, to gain the votes of such people), to state that America is a 'Christian nation'. In the interest of continuity, both of these phrases ought be removed from their respective areas.
I don't know if you read the previous posts on this board, but we actually side-tracked into that and i'm glad you posted this.
In my post I told how I was kicked out of class because I would not stand or say the pledge.
"One nation under God" is one of the reasons I do not.
Another is just because I do not believe I have to pledge to damned flag to show respect for my country or the troops in Iraq. I have plenty respect for the troops...SOME respect for the country..but I don't feel the need to say that to a flag everyday.
One of my friends has come up with the simples way to make everyone on this subject....Just make it gods or all gods instead of just god.
ha that would make people much happier I suppose. Except for a few extreme athiests that i'm sure would still raise the point of "no gods" whatsoever.
I always stand for the pledge, but just shut the hell up during the "under god" part if I was even saying it to begin with.
When i do stand for the plendge i just stand in silence. The way i see it that is good enough for america. I mean come on since 1st grade iv e been saying the pledge a few times wont kill anyone.
Yup, I saw it. That's what... tempted me to write so much, although, in hindsight, this would be much better suited as a blog.
-There is no sin save faith
I agree with you, but I still don't believe in standing to a flag and preaching to it to show respect for my nation. I have respect. I just don't believe that that's the way i need to show it lol. I mean of course i'm not going to be disruptive or anything during it. I have respect for others and the fact that they believe in it. I just sit quietly until it's over.
Certainly wouldn't make me happy.
-There is no sin save faith
[quote=AgnosticAtheist1]Certainly wouldn't make me happy.
-There is no sin save faith[/quote]
He just proved my last post for me lol
thats exactly how i feel...teachers even bitch at me for that which is very annoying. Atleast your showing respect to those who choose to do so.
not to sound rude or mean but you need to lighten up...its not that serious of a subject i mean if it bothers you that much than just dont say it. Its just a simple solution to a stupid problem.
[quote=Bryan T]not to sound rude or mean but you need to lighten up...its not that serious of a subject i mean if it bothers you that much than just dont say it. Its just a simple solution to a stupid problem.
[/quote]
I lack that choice. I don't stand OR say it, but have gotten in trouble in several instances. I'm thinking that I'm going to use what I wrote here as part of an actual philosophy article(after I clear up all the errors in it) for my school philosophy magazine
And the issue itself is not that as big of a deal, but the implications behind it are.
-There is no sin save faith
Respect is earned for logical actions, it is not a right which ought be showed to all ideas. If someone cannot justify why they ought do something, or why they ought not fail to do it, I do not respect the decision.
-There is no sin save faith
what i ment was that if changing it to gods or just not saying it at all is not good enough for you than your screwed. You yourself are not going to be able to change the whole US school system and there thoughts on the pledge. The best you can do is make your point and your school and maybe a few more.
[quote=Bryan T]thats exactly how i feel...teachers even bitch at me for that which is very annoying. Atleast your showing respect to those who choose to do so.
[/quote]
I think that they should then have respect for you for having the courtesy and respect for Others lol.
Saying the Pledge isn't mandatory. If they say it is, tell them to prove it in writing. They can't, but you can prove it isn't. There's many lawsuits recorded in law books featuring students that sued for their right not to pledge, and they always win.
Besides, it's a stupid pledge. Making kindergateners pledge to a country they don't yet understand? Man, that sounds familiar.
*CoughHitler'sYouthCough*
So because a goal might take several generatiosn or require serious sacricifice or seems impossible, it ought be not attempted? These things take time, but they can happen.
-There is no sin save faith
no thats not what i ment at all. what i ment is that by you yourself protesting, here and now not in the future. You can not effect the world by yourself.
I said something on my school's myspace and people felt it matter so little they had to tell everyone it didn't matter. Yeah I didn't get why people would say something if they don't care. They also thought taking god out of government is like banning religion... They also talked about tradition, however stopped when I pointed out why it was tradition. One person felt that since we(young people) don't matter we shouldn't even be talking about it. He was 17 not to long before he does have a say that is more thing just talking.
one time when i was in the 8th grade the normal person who did announcements was out sick, so one of my teachers did it for the day. when he started to say the pledge i assumed it was gonna be the same ole whoo-ha. We all stood for it and started saying it. He got to "and to the republic for which it stands one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." He had omitted the under god portion and everyone was confused. I had forgotten about it until i read this topic, but now that i remember it, its probably coolest thing a teacher has done in my school system. unfortunately, even though that same person who did announcements was out, they didnt let my teacher do announcements again.
another story: this summer i worked for the school system (seems to be a tradition in my family.) my job was minor; i just painted walls. but while i was in the elementary schools i noticed something i had also forgotten about when i had been in elementary school. we have doors connecting classrooms to classrooms in case of fires and above each of these doors in a small sign that says: "IN GOD WE TRUST." wouldnt this also be an endorsement of religion? what if there was a young muslim kid, which there are a few of in my city, who read it and didnt understand why he had to trust in god and not allah? they try to put god everywhere they can even when its as minute a 1 foot long sign in a classroom. this could be considered good or bad: they dont have them in high school classrooms. im happy that they dont endorse religion in the high schools, but if the signs were up then i would be able to take them to court.
There are groups that want to have a poster the "In God We Trust" motto on it in every classroom...
To me it seems like very few people even know what it all means and the real history behind it all. I talked to my parents about it the other day and I was teaching them.
Then raises the theory about US money. In God We Trust is on that too.
i still think the whole Novus Ordo Seclorum theory with the Great Seal is pretty funny.
Refusing to say the pledge is showing MORE respect to the flag than giving up your freedom to do so.
The funniest thing is that some religious nuts here in Greece think that the supposed US new world order is all about dechristianization... DOH!
[quote=Derevirn]The funniest thing is that some religious nuts here in Greece think that the supposed US new world order is all about dechristianization... DOH![/quote]
Ha Dan Brown anyone? Angels and Demons? That's where I first heard about all that shit. Then I decided that I wasn't going to trust just one author and went and did some of my own reading around online.
At my high school, we not only have the Pledge but also the "Moment of Silence" for prayer (they say that it can be for any silent activity... ugh).
But it is mostly a joke to everyone, shit I don't know a single theist who seriously broke out into prayer during the MoS.
My muslim friend intoned "Durka Durka" during it once though and I got in trouble for laughing. Good times.
"You may believe in stones, brother. Just don't beam me with them!"
~Wafa Sultan
In my school, I refused to say the pledge, and the teacher yelled at me. Obviously she didnt expect me to yell back. Because i did, and it shut her up really fast.
[quote=blood pig]Ha Dan Brown anyone? Angels and Demons? That's where I first heard about all that shit. Then I decided that I wasn't going to trust just one author and went and did some of my own reading around online.[/quote]
I don't know about Brown's book, yet some people here take that stuff seriously. They demonize everything they dislike. Combining traditionalism with anti-americanism (or anti-zionism) they believe USA is that big godless nation who will deprive them of their religious values. They can't realize that USA is governed by the same brand of nutcases...
I never say the pledge. Last year my actual teacher didn't care. Then her 11 year old daughter got cancer. Poor girl. Anyway, any sub we had yelled at me. Then one day the pledge was during 1st period instead of Homeroom. And I had social studies. My teacher really didn't like me. He called me a witch and a terrorist. And when asked if he secretly hated me, he said no, it's not a secret. Anyway, he yelled at me and I yelled back damnit. Then I got sent out of the room and was told that it was my own fault for disrespecting the teacher and the country.
Red Scare anyone?
thats definatly what I see
on another forum a guy was talking about how he thought the red scare was a good thing... Then again he also thinks all Muslims are terrorist so he doesn't seem know much.
[quote=KimTheFaerieFreak]I never say the pledge. Last year my actual teacher didn't care. Then her 11 year old daughter got cancer. Poor girl. Anyway, any sub we had yelled at me. Then one day the pledge was during 1st period instead of Homeroom. And I had social studies. My teacher really didn't like me. He called me a witch and a terrorist. And when asked if he secretly hated me, he said no, it's not a secret. Anyway, he yelled at me and I yelled back damnit. Then I got sent out of the room and was told that it was my own fault for disrespecting the teacher and the country.[/quote]
Yeah dude subs are bullshit. I had one and I didn't stand and he walks up to me and goes "are you religious?" and I said "I'm a strong Athiest." and he goes ">gasp< You're giong to hell. I can't believe a lightening bult didn't just shoot out of the sky and hit you".
I looked at him and went "you're fucking retarted" then of course got kicked out..
hahaha i love that. i dont have issues with people at my school about this much anymore. because they know i will kill them :)
I just realized half my post got cut off.
It was supposed to say
"and he goes "You're going to hell. I can't believe a lightening bult didn't just shoot out of the sky and hit you" and i just looked at him and went "dude you're fucking retarted"...and of course i then got kicked out of class"
hahahahaha, wow, you should have said you are going to hell for sinning just to piss him off
haha I hate that faggot. I yelled "god damnit" once too and he was like "Excuse me don't take His name in vain". And i said "why? he doesn't mean shit to me"
My french teacher was my sub once. I didn't stand and she asked me if I was religious. It was amazing because I was reading this books called 'sweet blood' and I held it up and told her I was a violent satanist. And she looked like she was going to cry. That was last year, but my school only has one french teacher, because "only weird kids take french" so I have her again this year and she still hates me.
hahaha, never let yourself be portrayed as a satanist. As funny as it may be, it is a threat to you. if people take you seriously someone may try to hurt you
I know. I get asked it I am a satanist/satan all the time. I always tell them I'm not but I am a vampire. Because I always playfully bite my friends. And two of my teeth are kind of pointy so they look like fangs. And then I say 'rawr'
I can still possibly open some people's eyes, as well as simply piss off some people :)
-There is no sin save faith
ha rawr is amazing. but a vampire. lol that is pushing it just a tad bit
I just really love, how they believe me.
they believe you?!?!?! who the hell in the right mind would believe you? that is rediculous
a bunch of fake people in a small new york town. They all believe me. And think I'm going to kill them
dont kill anyone unless you can get away with it
I know. my brother has been telling me that since I was like 5.
your brother is a very wise man then :)
oh yes definatly
He is the only 18 year old guy I know who is a computer genious, is crazy smart, knows everything, knits, and kicks ass at chess
I always find it interesting when atheists(or other minorities, but especially atheists) use 'faggot' as an insult
-There is no sin save faith