America a Christian Nation?
Offline First note: AskTheAtheist.com (the link should be in the NO God Network box over there >>>>) has this question as one of its first. I guess this just means look around more, although I kinda want a paper version that people can analyze easier and learn the truth.
This is sort of my argument aginst it/adressing of points on the issue. It is written for those who think the US was founded for america so it is kind of forceful in that respect.
also sorry that all the links don't have a real link I'm too lazy to type them all up right now...
Info FTW
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html (very good article on this using good sources)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled2.htm (about the pledge)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm (about the motto)
http://forum.wgbh.org/wgbh/forum.php?lecture_id=1488 (long speech, explains a lot though and gives two yes and one sort of, other points of views are expressed)
http://monotheism.us/ (titled 'Debunking the Christian Democracy Myth' nuff said)
http://atheistempire.com/reference/laws/index.html (a collection of laws and history, is biased and misspells Tripoli)
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/ (about the founding fathers)
Ok most people don't want to read all that, I'll lay out some of the finer points...
1. Letters from founding fathers: the founding fathers beliefs don't really give great proof for a christian/secular/non-christian nation, some quotes from letters have been made up (I would asume on both sides), some letters conflict with each other.
2. Declaration of Independence:
“...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...”
Bolded are the only mentions of god or a higher power, and it seems to me that they are saying they have rights and god and government shouldn't mix. But lets say they aren't just that. Well this is a declaration of independence not a document how to run the nation more over it is just saying, we are mad and we aren't taking it anymore [flip the bird]. The declaration was written in 1776, the constitution was written in 178, my point? 11 years past and another document in-between.
3. Constitution: The only talk about religion at all are as follows.
Article VI. - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
You don’t need to believe in god or any religion or have any test taken for any office or public trust for the United States. (in theory...)
Amendment I
”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
But I'm going to brake this down...
Congress shall make no law respecting(the condition of being honored;an attitude of admiration or esteem;showing respect towards) an establishment(an organization founded and united for a specific purpose; a public or private structure; any large organization) of religion(a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; an institution to express belief in a divine power; a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power), or prohibiting(forbid) the free(able to act at will; not hampered) exercise(carry out or practice) thereof(being religion)
So...
Congress shall make no law (honoring, show respect to) an (organization founded, structure) of (a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power), or (forbid) the (ability to) (carry out or practice) (a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power).
4. The first motto/pledge:
First Motto:
”E Pluribus Unum”
Pledge as of 1892:
”I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”
Pledge as of 1942:
”I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
Pledge as of 1954:
”I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
President Eisenhower (1954):
”From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty. after signing into law a bill to have under God added to the original pledge.”
Rulings by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in 2002-JUN and 2003-FEB.:
”The statement that the United States is a nation 'under God' is an endorsement of religion. It is a profession of a religious belief, namely, a belief in monotheism,”
5. Treaty of Tripoli:
”Article 11.
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
Bull right? Nope: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=002/llsp002.db&recNum=23 (first page) http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=002/llsp002.db&recNum=24 (second page, has Article 11)
America was simply founded for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Anyone saying it is a christain nation obviously ignores that part of history.
True but a lot of it was created on christian beliefs, 10 commandments and what not.
Exactally. It was founded for religious freedom, but was founded on religion. It's not a demoncracy, it's a hypocricy.
wow. That was the LAMEST thing I have ever written. too much sugar. I sound like and idiot
which ten commandments?
i ment the basic principal of the ten commandments
Well, really it is based on the rationalism of the age of Enlightenment.. Shit they quote Locke in the Dec. of inden. and the Constitution.
Also, Christianity isn't mentioned in the Constitution.
Our goverment was intended to be secular.
(at least I think... 2 cents)
its ment to be secular but people make such a big deal out of religion that they have to bring it into politics
True true... Its quiet sad.
people need to realize that not eveyone shares there views though. people need to learn to get with the times.
exactally, it's 2006 not 1806. Okay probably a bad reference since I don't know what was going on in 1806. But there are a lot of free thing people in the world. And not everyone is going to agree with their veiws.
I don't think it was based on the commandments alone if at all...
"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me..."
The law doesn't favor one god over another, minus the "under god" and "in god we trust" but those where added much later. > 1/4
"Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
Don't think we have that one on the books.
"Thou shalt not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."
Don't think we have this one either
"Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
maybe with the blue laws... > 1/4
"Thou shalt honor your father and your mother..."
I guess they do own our ass till we get kicked out... > 1/2
"Thou shalt not murder"
ok here is one we have, killing = bad > 1
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
I can't think of many laws, and the ones that come to mind are state laws > 1/4
"Thou shalt not steal."
ok, stealing = bad > 1
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor"
can't lie under oath > 1
"Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's house..."
We can want lots of stuff... just have to buy it.
so 4.25 out of 10, 0.75 of which are state laws or added later much later
i didnt mean it that literally lol
Sometimes I feel like practiceing the letter of the Law to fundies...
"Oh you're working on the Sabbath... Sorry I gotta kill yah!"
"You making images of Jesus... IDOLATOR! Extermination time!"
I dunno. No one follows all the bible.. Just picking and choosing.
i think the fact that everything is mostly subjective hushes most debates when they get annoying
[quote=Greg]i think the fact that everything is mostly subjective hushes most debates when they get annoying[/quote]
Greg, I remember back when we were orignally discussing relativity and subjectivity, and you once told me "Oh, don't give me all that subjectivity bullshit". haha, apparently your outlook has changed...
[quote=Greg]America was simply founded for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Anyone saying it is a christain nation obviously ignores that part of history.[/quote]
Actually Greg, obviously, you are wrong. (lol =D) For I, as you know, I am perfectly aware that that U.S. was orignally founded under the ideal that one and all should be free of religious persecution. But which government in the past has honsetly, and successfully upheld anything it originally stood for, for very long. Yes, I agree that the U.S. was founded under good intention, but it is so obviously apparent that we are founded also upon Christian morals, being directly derived from Christianity (Which is apparent when viewing our laws and policy). I guess there's not much that could have been done about this, because if most people were to create a government, their morals would most likely have extremely large impact of the laws and national policy. Being of any religious background is most certainly going to affect your moral, hence-forth, a government largely impacted by a religion has been created. Also, these numbers might possibly be a bit off but if I recall correctly, around 25% of Americans are creationist Christians, and around 50% of Americans are Christians who accept that evolution may have occured. Either way, if this is true, near 75% of Americans are Christian. So, yes. America is a Christian nation. Those 75% of our population, givin that they vote, have a extremely dynamic influence on every political figure put into office, this being a democracy. (The Christians are almost deffinately going to be naturally biased towards voting for Christian political figures.) Hence, the majority of the political figures are going to be Christian, hence, the votes that occur among politicians that decide what happens in the U.S. are going to be biased towards Christianity, and Christian things and going to be executed by our nation. Yes, we are a Christian nation. (Which makes me a sad panda =D haha)
Population wise sure, but like I said it was not founded for christians alone. Now please show me all these christian morals that the us has. No killing or stealing? Well it doesn't take a genus to figure out those things are bad for society...
Most of the founding fathers were deist which isn't christian. So it isn't so much that we are founded on christian morals as christians were able to pick some good stuff much in the same way a person without religion would define what is good.
When I was talking about our nation I was looking at it from what the documents are saying. These documents are the workings of the country not the people who are under them. On the state level there was some religion in government but those were illegal if you look at the federal documents. And any religion that is in the government right now is illegal as well.
Yes people elect officials, but those officials (at least in theory) can't create laws or orders based on religion alone. I say in theory because a lot of people have ignored such things. In some cases creating rules that are unconstitutional on other grounds in order to protect other illegal acts.
[quote=Adam Burnfin][quote=Greg]i think the fact that everything is mostly subjective hushes most debates when they get annoying[/quote]
Greg, I remember back when we were orignally discussing relativity and subjectivity, and you once told me "Oh, don't give me all that subjectivity bullshit". haha, apparently your outlook has changed...[/quote]
Yes, but what we were talking about was entirely different and you were using it without any more backup.
[quote=Adam Burnfin][quote=Greg]America was simply founded for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Anyone saying it is a christain nation obviously ignores that part of history.[/quote]
Actually Greg, obviously, you are wrong. (lol =D) For I, as you know, I am perfectly aware that that U.S. was orignally founded under the ideal that one and all should be free of religious persecution. But which government in the past has honsetly, and successfully upheld anything it originally stood for, for very long. Yes, I agree that the U.S. was founded under good intention, but it is so obviously apparent that we are founded also upon Christian morals, being directly derived from Christianity (Which is apparent when viewing our laws and policy). I guess there's not much that could have been done about this, because if most people were to create a government, their morals would most likely have extremely large impact of the laws and national policy. Being of any religious background is most certainly going to affect your moral, hence-forth, a government largely impacted by a religion has been created. Also, these numbers might possibly be a bit off but if I recall correctly, around 25% of Americans are creationist Christians, and around 50% of Americans are Christians who accept that evolution may have occured. Either way, if this is true, near 75% of Americans are Christian. So, yes. America is a Christian nation. Those 75% of our population, givin that they vote, have a extremely dynamic influence on every political figure put into office, this being a democracy. (The Christians are almost deffinately going to be naturally biased towards voting for Christian political figures.) Hence, the majority of the political figures are going to be Christian, hence, the votes that occur among politicians that decide what happens in the U.S. are going to be biased towards Christianity, and Christian things and going to be executed by our nation. Yes, we are a Christian nation. (Which makes me a sad panda =D haha)[/quote]
Just because the majority thinks one thing doesnt mean that it is true, you of all people i would expect to know that. If it was true, God would be real. Which we dont know, but it is highly improbable. We are not a christian nation, but the majority of us are christian citizens
Usually when people say that America is a Christian nation, they are saying that America was founded with christianity, and it has an official religion. Which it doesn't.
Saying that Iran is an islamic nation is correct. Its laws and government are based on Islam. America is not based on Christianity.
[quote=Greg][quote=Adam Burnfin][quote=Greg]i think the fact that everything is mostly subjective hushes most debates when they get annoying[/quote]
Greg, I remember back when we were orignally discussing relativity and subjectivity, and you once told me "Oh, don't give me all that subjectivity bullshit". haha, apparently your outlook has changed...[/quote]
Yes, but what we were talking about was entirely different and you were using it without any more backup.
[quote=Adam Burnfin][quote=Greg]America was simply founded for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Anyone saying it is a christain nation obviously ignores that part of history.[/quote]
Actually Greg, obviously, you are wrong. (lol =D) For I, as you know, I am perfectly aware that that U.S. was orignally founded under the ideal that one and all should be free of religious persecution. But which government in the past has honsetly, and successfully upheld anything it originally stood for, for very long. Yes, I agree that the U.S. was founded under good intention, but it is so obviously apparent that we are founded also upon Christian morals, being directly derived from Christianity (Which is apparent when viewing our laws and policy). I guess there's not much that could have been done about this, because if most people were to create a government, their morals would most likely have extremely large impact of the laws and national policy. Being of any religious background is most certainly going to affect your moral, hence-forth, a government largely impacted by a religion has been created. Also, these numbers might possibly be a bit off but if I recall correctly, around 25% of Americans are creationist Christians, and around 50% of Americans are Christians who accept that evolution may have occured. Either way, if this is true, near 75% of Americans are Christian. So, yes. America is a Christian nation. Those 75% of our population, givin that they vote, have a extremely dynamic influence on every political figure put into office, this being a democracy. (The Christians are almost deffinately going to be naturally biased towards voting for Christian political figures.) Hence, the majority of the political figures are going to be Christian, hence, the votes that occur among politicians that decide what happens in the U.S. are going to be biased towards Christianity, and Christian things and going to be executed by our nation. Yes, we are a Christian nation. (Which makes me a sad panda =D haha)[/quote]
Just because the majority thinks one thing doesnt mean that it is true, you of all people i would expect to know that. If it was true, God would be real. Which we dont know, but it is highly improbable. We are not a christian nation, but the majority of us are christian citizens
[/quote]
Me of all people you expect to know that, boy greg, that familiar, maybe that's because you've told me that because, when speaking of these things. But oh yes, I do know, as you know I know.
Also, topic of discussion has nothing to do with the fact that nearly everything is subjective. Also, I would not be as bold as you were to make the statement that I did not back that up, though it was months ago and I can't recall, I am not one for leaving a discussion without picking it apart or siding with one side for no apparent reason, as I would expect you, of all people, to know.
I believe we are a Christian nation because no, just because approximately 75% of us are Christian doesn't mean it's right, that is one crazy assumption, on the grounds that I simply did not state that, or hint towards it. (That comment being directed towards anyong who assumed that, or thought I meant that) On the other hand, we are currently a Christian nation because those 75% of us being the majority, whether right or wrong, decide for the nation (One, givin that they participate in certain events, and two, taking into consideration that 75% of us being Christian means most of us in government positions are probably going to be Christian, therefore their votes are not going to go in anti-Christian, whether logical or illogical). Also, We were a Christian nation when being formed also because of the same basic thing. Most of the founding fathers where of a certain religion, reflected those ethics upon the structure of the government. Now I understand how one might say 'but if the government was formed for religious freedom, we cannot be of any religion', but the Christians also say they accept anyone into their churches, and reject gays from entering/ participating in events. Sorry if that analogy sucked, I couldn't think of a very good one, but to make it simple, despite all of what I have said, look at the people, and the laws, and the policy, and the politicians. They are either mostly Christian, or benefitting Christianity. Also, just to point out, did anyone ever think that the original settlers come here to get away from persecution, and might not have cared about any other religion, but made a government where they could live freely without stating that they where right because that would be a logical falacy? They did come over here and treat the Natives like cow-dung, despite what your kindergarten teacher tought you. (Just a thought).
-correct: America is not based on Christianity, but I believe Christiany played a large roll in it's creation. Whether or did it plat a large roll, I still believe America is a Christian nation, as least currently. Probably not more than ever, not in percentage, but in numbers.
Would you stop flaming Greg already. This is not a place to try to put people down. Do not call him "boy" by saying that, you making him out to be insuperior to you.
We are here to exchange ideas, and to be polite about it, not to go and flame people.
So, i'm going to ask you nicely to please stop.
I understand we are not here to flame people Kyzer, please do not assume I am here to do so. Please also do not take a defensive stance towards him, because I only say what I say not hold my position against him, otherwise he would allow himself to trample over me. We (every day, being good friends, yes, Greg and I good friends in school together) discuss various things, and if one of us leaves one gap open on our side of the conversation, the other jumps in, and rips the other to shreds. I just take initiative, and often he does what I do to him to me. I am sorry, but you should see some of our discussions to understand. I am just defending my stance. When he makes a point towards me, I am not going to let him prod me.
[quote=Adam Burnfin]I understand we are not here to flame people Kyzer, please do not assume I am here to do so. Please also do not take a defensive stance towards him, because I only say what I say not hold my position against him, otherwise he would allow himself to trample over me. We (every day, being good friends, yes, Greg and I good friends in school together) discuss various things, and if one of us leaves one gap open on our side of the conversation, the other jumps in, and rips the other to shreds. I just take initiative, and often he does what I do to him to me. I am sorry, but you should see some of our discussions to understand. I am just defending my stance. When he makes a point towards me, I am not going to let him prod me.[/quote]
This ofcourse I am thankful for, I believe, I am not sure if you think the same way, but I think that it helps both of us get better at debating. But anyhoo. I see where you are coming from. but under national standards, we are not a christian country. Bush may say so, but if you say look us up in perhaps an encyclopedia, I believe it would not show us as a christian nation. Maybe majority wise christian. but not a christian nation. Btw, Kyzer, I thank you for the support, I am thankful, but I can handle it ;) adam and I beat on eachother constantly. But I can see how you would be a good friend :)
[quote=Greg][quote=Adam Burnfin]I understand we are not here to flame people Kyzer, please do not assume I am here to do so. Please also do not take a defensive stance towards him, because I only say what I say not hold my position against him, otherwise he would allow himself to trample over me. We (every day, being good friends, yes, Greg and I good friends in school together) discuss various things, and if one of us leaves one gap open on our side of the conversation, the other jumps in, and rips the other to shreds. I just take initiative, and often he does what I do to him to me. I am sorry, but you should see some of our discussions to understand. I am just defending my stance. When he makes a point towards me, I am not going to let him prod me.[/quote]
This ofcourse I am thankful for, I believe, I am not sure if you think the same way, but I think that it helps both of us get better at debating. But anyhoo. I see where you are coming from. but under national standards, we are not a christian country. Bush may say so, but if you say look us up in perhaps an encyclopedia, I believe it would not show us as a christian nation. Maybe majority wise christian. but not a christian nation. Btw, Kyzer, I thank you for the support, I am thankful, but I can handle it ;) adam and I beat on eachother constantly. But I can see how you would be a good friend :)[/quote]
Actually Greg, Bush does ceratinly NOT declare the U.S. a Christian nation (I don't think) and if he does, he is now more-so a fool that he was in the past and one tally should be added to the number of times he should be slapped. But of course the encyclopedia won't say we are a chrisitan nation, that's not what we were supposedly founded on. Also, anyone who published an encyclopedia that said otherwise would have sparked a major issue, and no one wants to claim that corruptness occurs in another government, at least to them, that can lead to war. But as we all know, (or should) our government is corrupt.
Bush did say it was a christian nation. He even went as far as to say we(atheists) arent citizens or shouldnt be
Wow, what a bold bastard.
ha language adam. lol but i agree entirely. But you have to give him some credit, he has balls.
I give him no credit, his courage is arrogant and is deriven from stupidity.
[quote=Adam Burnfin]I give him no credit, his courage is arrogant and is deriven from stupidity.[/quote]
And you know when he's lying, unlike Clinton, even though Clinton did turn our nation around, until the last three months, with that scandal...
Oh, and if i had known you guys were friends from school, i probably wouldn't have said that :P
America is not a "Christian Nation", because, as [url=http://www.adventuresinlegalland.com/Christian_nation.html]Marc Stevens explains, there is no "Nation" in the first place.[/url]
[quote]A popular myth is the "United States" is a "Christian nation" or a "nation" founded on Judeo-Christian ethics. This is actually two separate myths: 1) there is a "nation" and 2) it’s founded on Judeo-Christian ethics. The first myth, that there is a "nation," is proven to be a myth by Judeo-Christian ethics themselves. As I will show, a "nation," as we know it, cannot be founded on Judeo-Christian ethics. This is based a simple truth: no service or product should be provided at the barrel of a gun.
To unravel these myths, we must know what a "nation" such as the so-called "United States" is, or is supposed to be. As the name suggests, the "United States" is more than one "state" joined together. What is a "state" though? We can quickly dispel the political nonsense a "state" is a geographic location such as "New York." If not, then politicians should explain where the "State of New York" was on July 3rd, 1776.
A "state" is defined as "A body politic…occupying a definite territory, and politically organized under one government." Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1210. The "United States" is "A body politic and corporate…" Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1318. A "body politic" is "formed by a voluntary association of individuals: it is a social compact…" Preamble, Massachusetts Constitution and Munn v. Illinois, 94 US 113. "Government" is alleged to be men and women providing the service of protecting "Life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" to those men and women who "Consent" to such service, Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776. In reality though, "government" is one man controlling another man without the latter’s consent ostensibly for the latter’s own "good."
Knowing this, let’s look at the facts. The "states" and the "United States" were allegedly created by pieces of paper and ink called "constitutions." Being nothing more than paper and ink, "constitutions" are only obligatory on men and women as contracts, agreements or compacts. After all, a "body politic" is supposed to be a "voluntary association." I recommend reading Lysander Spooner’s No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority. As stated therein, the "constitution" is unsigned and as such created nothing. Myth number one is dispelled on that alone (there are other reasons not included herein): there are no "states" and no "United States." In other words, there is no "nation."
Let’s look at just a few common Judeo-Christian ethics and compare them with the real-life application of those four pieces of paper and ink called the "constitution." The question here is this:
Is the service of protecting "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" provided in a manner consistent with Judeo-Christian ethics?
There are "Thou shalt not kill…thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Exodus 20:13, 15-16. And "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." John 15:12.
Are you free to accept and support the "constitution" (four pieces of paper and ink) or not? Free means there are no strings or conditions attached, such as being killed, robbed and lied to if you don’t accept. Do you have a choice to not accept the wonderful "protection" (remember 9/11?) and other pretended "services" offered by the "constitution?" If so, are you obligated to pay for such services i.e., your "fair share of taxes?" Can you decline paying "taxes" without being killed, robbed or lied to by men and women claiming to be a "state?"
Let me first dispel the claim you can "just move to another country." Such emotional claim is ridiculous because the "United States" is not a geographic location but instead ostensibly a "voluntary association of individuals." It also supports the fact the "constitution" is not offered freely.
The "constitution" isn’t offered freely on a take-it-or-leave it basis like contracts or agreements. Remember, if not a contract, the "constitution" binds no one and creates nothing but is just four really old pieces of paper and ink. Those "services" are provided and paid for on a compulsory basis; your "Consent" has nothing to do with it.
So, to answer the question, NO; the service of protecting "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is NOT provided in a manner consistent with the above Judeo-Christian ethics:
"Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and stablisheth a city by iniquity!" Habakkuk 2:12.
The idea there’s a "benefit" to people because a group of men and women provide their "services" on a compulsory basis and this so-called "benefit" then somehow "obligates" people to pay "taxes" is preposterous. That’s how the mob does business.
The "constitution" is offered on a compulsory or violent basis. This contradicts "state constitutions" and the Declaration of Independence that state it’s "voluntary" and by "Consent." This is inconsistent with Exodus 20:15 and John 15:12. What if you refuse to "pay your fair share?" Refuse to "pay your fair share" and you provide these valiant protectors of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" with an awesome opportunity to contradict Exodus 20:13.
If you doubt application of the "constitution" contradicts Exodus 20:13 and John 15:12, then go back into the "history" books and refresh your memory about the "civil war." Read about the slaughter of men, women and children because they decided to leave the pretended "voluntary association of individuals." So much for the asinine "if you don’t like this country then leave." If you still doubt this, read article I § 2 of the Nevada "constitution." For those who are not faint of heart, grow marijuana on land you are convinced you own. When the men with machine guns show up, boldly tell them you have no agreement or "social compact" with them and they should get off your property immediately. When you say it make sure your hands are empty and where the agriculture police can see them.
Even if we assume there’s a "nation," it was not based on Judeo-Christian ethics because those so-called "services" are paid for on a violent basis. The taking of property by force or threats of force is called stealing. The act of stealing and "taxation" are virtually identical. You don’t have to take my word for it either: "tax. A forced burden…A tax is not regarded as a debt in the ordinary sense of the term, for the reason that a tax does not depend upon the consent of the taxpayer…" Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1255-56. Real customers, voluntarily accepting real services, incur debts.
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know and understand "taxes" are based on violence. People pay to avoid the violence. A clue to the quality of the "services" provided by the local "state" is the fact that payment is compulsory. What kind of people provide their "services" at the barrel of a gun? Why would a "valuable service" everybody allegedly wants have to be provided on a compulsory basis?
Oh yeah, what about the part in the Bible about Caesar? "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s…" Matthew 22:21. This is an absurd attempt to justify the violent taking of property i.e., robbery. Caesar and his henchmen conquered the Jews; he never claimed to be protecting them with their consent as their servant. Do the people who make this claim believe there was a "social compact" between Caesar and the Jews?
And for those people reading this who need to divert attention by making claims about being "free" in this "country," let me point out just how "free" we are; that is just another myth like the one there is a "country."
You are not "free" to post anything on the internet unless you get permission first. Don’t believe me? OK, don’t pay the "tax" your ISP collects for the "privilege" of doing business. If you have a dial-up connection you better make sure all those "communication taxes" are paid first.
You’re free to be in any profession you want? Nonsense; better go to those "state" approved "schools" first. Make sure you get permission to work by getting a so-called "license." Oh, your chosen profession isn’t "required" to have a "license" just yet? Make sure you fill in your "tax forms" before you start and don’t forget to report every single penny. Forget ten little pennies and you are suddenly a felon and your home "seized" to pay for your "trial."
Free to marry the person of your choice? Think again, you need a so-called "license." Free to live with that significant other? Sorry, that’s a crime also. Think you can freely engage in consensual sexual relations with another adult in the privacy of that home you think you own? Think again.
Believe you’re "free" to walk down the street? Too bad, better have a "state" issued ID card or you’ll be awarded six months in a "state" jail if your friendly neighborhood "cop" decides it’s your lucky day to be "protected."
Freedom to say "No" to a service or product you don’t want to have? Yeah right, just say no to the IRS, DEA or the ATF? Sorry, I want my head to stay on top of my neck.
And if you think you have property rights you are sadly mistaken in the eyes of those men and women pretending to be a "state." To these pretended "servants" individual men and women own NOTHING:
"The ultimate ownership of all property is in the State; individual so-called "ownership" is only by virtue of Government, i.e., law, amounting to mere user; and that use must be in accordance with law and subordinate to the necessities of the State." Senate Resolution #62, from April 1933.
I think the point is made.
There is no "nation." To be based on Judeo-Christian ethics, the "nation" would have to be a "voluntary association." The service of protecting "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" would have to be provided on a purely voluntary basis and that means it’s also paid for just like every other service – voluntarily.
Because what is supposed to be a "nation" today was, and is, based on violence, there is no "nation" because "nations" and "states" are "voluntary." Go ahead and challenge this, keep in mind the founding "constitutions" would then contradict Exodus 20:13 i.e., a "body politic" is "formed by a voluntary association of individuals: it is a social compact…" Preamble, Massachusetts Constitution and Munn v. Illinois, 94 US 113.
This presents statists with a real problem: if "nations" are NOT voluntary then that itself contradicts Judeo-Christian ethics. It proves there is no "voluntary association" but a violent one. If violent, then there is hardly freedom and liberty let alone being founded on Judeo-Christian ethics.
There is no "nation" or pretended "state." Just a group of men and women doing business at the barrel of a gun. As Ernest Hancock says, "There are only two types of people; those who want to be left alone and those who won’t leave them alone."
Wake up America: There is no "nation" and there never was. Stop supporting unproductive anti-social individuals who won’t leave you alone.[/quote]
[quote=Stephen]Sometimes I feel like practiceing the letter of the Law to fundies...
"Oh you're working on the Sabbath... Sorry I gotta kill yah!"
"You making images of Jesus... IDOLATOR! Extermination time!"
I dunno. No one follows all the bible.. Just picking and choosing.[/quote]
no one follows the bible, but they don't hesitate to use it to point out other peoples faults either...
what fundies need is a fucking good kickin'
right in the gob... that would shut 'em up.
Dawkins points out in his "God Delusion" book that We had said at one point that we were definately NOT a Christian nation. But would that have changed? Can a nation change its national religion? I think so, england has before. But has America made an OFFICIAL change?
True, True. If it wasn't optional to be a part of the body politic, then of course, it would be slavery and theft. Oh, wait, it isn't optional. Bummer.
BTW, I heard a similar thing from Micheal Badnarik, a libertarian from Texas.
[url=http://]www.badnarik.org[/url]
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/UltraWill/badnarikinrichmond_004.jpg
Badnarik = tie
Me = Goofy kid with white shirt.
On this subject, I feel like the government is NOT run my Christians (or Jews for that matter) but opportunists who take advantage of faith in order to gain support. Hence the dangers of Democracy - if you have a nation which is made up of a majority of idiots, and a majority of Christians, then obviously there's a huge chunk that are idiots and Christians. Thus, playing on their faith is a remarkably clever political action.
The question is: Should we be taking actions to point out the faults of religion here, or the faults of the government?