Free thought?
Posted on: Fri, 2006-12-01 10:02
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Free thought?
ok, so i'm not trying to piss anybody off, even though i probably will. i've just got to say this becuase it keeps nagging at my mind.
you guys claim to be freethinking, right? doesnt free thought imply open-mindedness?
because you guys are some of the most closed minded people i've ever talked to.
this isnt a baseless accusation.
defend yourselves and i'll defend my postion.
thanks
I think there is merit to that. People who tend to think more than others people (I know I fall in this catagory) develop an arrogance about their conclusion. I try to avoid it, but I know I still sound arrogant.
I consider "free thinking" to mean an intellectual honesty and lack of refusal to changing one's ideas, in essence, letting your mind be free to think unrestricted, not having any taboos or intellectual realms to refuse to go into.
I'm fairly sure of the premises my beliefs rest on. If someone were to refute them, I would have to change my beliefs and would do so. However, I've never seen my premises refuted, so someone attempting to convince me that I am wrong using the more technical parts of something might find me to be "closed minded" because my premises already tell me that they are wrong and they make no effort to refute my premises.
[quote=Olivia Rival]ok, so i'm not trying to piss anybody off, even though i probably will. i've just got to say this becuase it keeps nagging at my mind.
you guys claim to be freethinking, right? doesnt free thought imply open-mindedness?
because you guys are some of the most closed minded people i've ever talked to.
this isnt a baseless accusation.
defend yourselves and i'll defend my postion.
thanks
[/quote]
People need to provide evidence to a claim before I will change my stance. Looking for evidence an ideas that change a persons viewpoint is my definition of an open-mind. But, I won't be so open minded that my brains fall out my head. If someone presents a claim or idea that is not logically or evidentially based. I'm afraid I'd have to dismiss it. Until they can change the two prerequisites. Plus, I would like an explanation as to why we are the most close minded people you've talked to. Yes it is a baseless accusation. You didn't address the evidence as to why you think this way.
Calling me close-minded is like saying all people (except little kids) are close-minded when it comes to the possibility of the tooth fairy existing. Same thing with the ancient Norse gods.
im not closed minded. if anyone offers some evedance that makes a higher power seem at all probable i would at least consider it
i feel myself to be rather open-minded. i love diversity just as much as the next liberal; but if someone is going to start ramming their views down my throat, then i get defensive. they act, then i act; and i will be as stubborn as i possibly can.
otherwise, i'm perfectly fine with a person's religion.
i have many friends of different beliefs and accept them, just as long as they dont start preaching.
[quote=noor]Calling me close-minded is like saying all people (except little kids) are close-minded when it comes to the possibility of the tooth fairy existing. Same thing with the ancient Norse gods.[/quote]
there is a difference between awareness and closed mindedness.
[quote=hush]im not closed minded. if anyone offers some evedance that makes a higher power seem at all probable i would at least consider it[/quote]
ok. i dont have any beef with atheism. theres no proof. and opening your mind to the idea that there is nothing is a form of openmindedness.
[quote=debaser]i feel myself to be rather open-minded. i love diversity just as much as the next liberal; but if someone is going to start ramming their views down my throat, then i get defensive. they act, then i act; and i will be as stubborn as i possibly can.
otherwise, i'm perfectly fine with a person's religion.
i have many friends of different beliefs and accept them, just as long as they dont start preaching.[/quote]
this is exactly what im talking about. people need to act more like this. i'm not saying anybody is closed minded because they dont believe in jesus or whatever. cause i dont...however, I am majorly concerned with this aura of hatred aimed at organized religion
[quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor]Calling me close-minded is like saying all people (except little kids) are close-minded when it comes to the possibility of the tooth fairy existing. Same thing with the ancient Norse gods.[/quote]
there is a difference between awareness and closed mindedness.[/quote]
What exactly do you mean? I wouldn't call myself close-minded. I was a doubter for about fourteen years before turning explicit atheist, and even now I'd be willing to believe if only I had answers to every single one of my questions.
[quote=noor][quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor]Calling me close-minded is like saying all people (except little kids) are close-minded when it comes to the possibility of the tooth fairy existing. Same thing with the ancient Norse gods.[/quote]
there is a difference between awareness and closed mindedness.[/quote]
What exactly do you mean? I wouldn't call myself close-minded. I was a doubter for about fourteen years before turning explicit atheist, and even now I'd be willing to believe if only I had answers to every single one of my questions.[/quote]
you dont understand. i'm not calling you closed minded. i'm not calling atheism closed minded. but your analogy is faulty. and thats what i was commenting on. children believe in the the tooth fairy or whatever because they dont know any better. because they are ignorant.
ignorance=unawareness. and if you are saying i'm calling anyone who isn't ignorant closed minded you are very worng
[quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor][quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor]Calling me close-minded is like saying all people (except little kids) are close-minded when it comes to the possibility of the tooth fairy existing. Same thing with the ancient Norse gods.[/quote]
there is a difference between awareness and closed mindedness.[/quote]
What exactly do you mean? I wouldn't call myself close-minded. I was a doubter for about fourteen years before turning explicit atheist, and even now I'd be willing to believe if only I had answers to every single one of my questions.[/quote]
you dont understand. i'm not calling you closed minded. i'm not calling atheism closed minded. but your analogy is faulty. and thats what i was commenting on. children believe in the the tooth fairy or whatever because they dont know any better. because they are ignorant.
ignorance=unawareness. and if you are saying i'm calling anyone who isn't ignorant closed minded you are very worng[/quote]
Kids believe in the tooth fairy because they don't know any better, that is true. People believed in the ancient Norse gods the same way. Believing in Yahweh is just about the same thing, or at least to me.
[quote=noor][quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor][quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor]Calling me close-minded is like saying all people (except little kids) are close-minded when it comes to the possibility of the tooth fairy existing. Same thing with the ancient Norse gods.[/quote]
there is a difference between awareness and closed mindedness.[/quote]
What exactly do you mean? I wouldn't call myself close-minded. I was a doubter for about fourteen years before turning explicit atheist, and even now I'd be willing to believe if only I had answers to every single one of my questions.[/quote]
you dont understand. i'm not calling you closed minded. [b]i'm not calling atheism closed minded[/b]. but your analogy is faulty. and thats what i was commenting on. children believe in the the tooth fairy or whatever because they dont know any better. because they are ignorant.
ignorance=unawareness. and if you are saying i'm calling anyone who isn't ignorant closed minded you are very worng[/quote]
Kids believe in the tooth fairy because they don't know any better, that is true. People believed in the ancient Norse gods the same way. Believing in Yahweh is just about the same thing, or at least to me.[/quote]
you just don't fucking get it. I AM NOT CALLING ATHEISM ITSELF CLOSED MINDED. READ MY FUCKING REPLIES. I SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT IN MY LAST REPLY TO YOUR COMMENTS. I AM CALLING ATTITUDES ON THIS SITE FUCKING CLOSED MINDED. LIKE THAT "END CHRISTMAS"
BULLSHIT. IT"S A CHRISTIAN FUCKING HOLIDAY YOU CANT FUCKING TAKE AWAY FROM THEM. THATS WHAT I'M CALLING CLOSED MINDED.
[b]GET IT NOOR? CAUSE I DONT THINK I CAN BREAK IT DOWN ANY EASIER FOR YOU[/b]
Close your eyes and count to ten...
sorry. i just get really fucking pissed off when i have to explain things over and over. i mean...i've read some of noor's post on other threads. and noor seems to be pretty good at grasping the concept. so its really AGGRAVATING when noor just cant understand something thing i have said like 8 times.
All right, I get that you were referring to the Christmas thing (and a few others too). It's just that you didn't mention it in your other posts. But yeah, I get what you're talking about now. Can we just leave it alone now? Thanks.
[quote=The_Fragile][quote=Olivia Rival]ok, so i'm not trying to piss anybody off, even though i probably will. i've just got to say this becuase it keeps nagging at my mind.
you guys claim to be freethinking, right? doesnt free thought imply open-mindedness?
because you guys are some of the most closed minded people i've ever talked to.
this isnt a baseless accusation.
defend yourselves and i'll defend my postion.
thanks
[/quote]
People need to provide evidence to a claim before I will change my stance. Looking for evidence an ideas that change a persons viewpoint is my definition of an open-mind.[/quote]prezactly!
this describes most atheists I know.
why don't we accept what theists say?
because it lacks evidence.
this is not being closed-minded. this is objective thinking.
now, do you believe that there are undetectable, invisible unicorns living on the moon?
if no, are you closed-minded if you don't accept this idea?
of course not. the reason you don't accept the idea is because it lacks evidence.
Now, just apply this to atheists and the idea of god.
also:
do you believe in Zeus?
do you believe in Allah?
Do you believe in Thor?
Do you believe in Ra?
Do you believe in Osiris?
Do you believe in Anubis?
Do you believe in Baal?
Do you believe in Fairies?
Do you believe in Leprachons?
Do you believe in the Flying Spaggheti Monster?
there are so many beliefs that Christians, Muslims, Jews etc don't believe in. if they call others closed-minded, because they do not think the same way, that is being hypocritical.
I agree. With who I will not say, but it is ridiculous to attack near 2 billion people's beliefs and defend your position without knowledge of what EXACTLY makes them incorrect.
ok. so i went about this the wrong way. i called people closed minded when i was really pissed off about the whole end christmas thing. and i didnt get into that defense wise because i wasnt sure i understood it. but now i do. so once more for everyone who wasnt paying attention
[b]I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ATHEISM.
I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN PER SE
I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE "END CHRISTMAS" THING
DO NOT SAY I AM CALLING YOU CLOSED MINDED
I AM NOT CALLING YOU CLOSED MINDED
I SHOULD HAVE JUST SAID I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE END CHRISTMAS THING TO BEGIN WITH
I DIDNT THOUGH
SO TOUGH SHIT[/b]\
ok. so that being said, will someone please explain to me why they agree with the "end christmas" campaign? why does it make sense? how do you justify trying to take a holiday for christians to celebrate what is one of their most important beliefs, the coming of jesus.
ok again. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN.
thanks
*bangs head on desk*
Nobody is trying to end Christmas. Nobody. They're just trying to piss off Christians and Fox News.
If this is not painfully obvious there might just be some wires loose in your head.
Ya, I even like Christmas. It is the reason we always have "winter" break. Actually, a fairly secular/ Jew school I went to once had no such break, so I think it is fair to draw a correlation
Originally, the idea of "War on Christmas" came from Fox reporters who really took things out of context when people considered replacing "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays" to make things more politically correct.
the "War on Christmas" here is just a parody.
[quote=Olivia Rival]ok. so i went about this the wrong way. i called people closed minded when i was really pissed off about the whole end christmas thing. and i didnt get into that defense wise because i wasnt sure i understood it. but now i do. so once more for everyone who wasnt paying attention
[b]I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ATHEISM.
I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN PER SE
I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE "END CHRISTMAS" THING
DO NOT SAY I AM CALLING YOU CLOSED MINDED
I AM NOT CALLING YOU CLOSED MINDED
I SHOULD HAVE JUST SAID I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE END CHRISTMAS THING TO BEGIN WITH
I DIDNT THOUGH
SO TOUGH SHIT[/b]\
ok. so that being said, will someone please explain to me why they agree with the "end christmas" campaign? why does it make sense? how do you justify trying to take a holiday for christians to celebrate what is one of their most important beliefs, the coming of jesus.
ok again. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN.
thanks
[/quote]actually, Jesus' Birthday wasn't December 25; That was originally a pagan holiday. Christianity just took that holiday from the Pagan religion when the Roman empire tried to standardise its religion (they chose Christianity), to make it easier for Pagans to convert.
Just out of curiosity: are you an atheist, or are you religious? if you are religious, whch religion do you believe?
[quote=Olivia Rival]
you guys claim to be freethinking, right? doesnt free thought imply open-mindedness?[/quote]
No freethought doesn't imply open mindedness. Freethought implies a mind free from religious dogma.
[quote]because you guys are some of the most closed minded people i've ever talked to.[/quote]
Making sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people is in itself somewhat of a close minded act.
[quote]defend yourselves and i'll defend my postion.[/quote]
What are we defending? What are you defending?
[quote=Olivia Rival]
I SHOULD HAVE JUST SAID I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE END CHRISTMAS THING TO BEGIN WITH[/quote]
Yeah you should've. This site is for people of all sorts of varying freethinking beliefs, including those who vehemently disagree with the "end christmas thing." The people who pay for this site (me) also use this site to convey the activism that we engage in, because many teens associated with our show frequent this board. It's our hope that the folks who speak up and co-exist with the couch sitters on this board in the spirit of freethought.
[quote]ok. so that being said, will someone please explain to me why they agree with the "end christmas" campaign?[/quote]
The War on Christmas is a mockery. It's number one goal is to strike about a conversation about the flaws in Christianity amongst people who wouldn't normally discuss it.
It was created to spoof/fuck with Fox news, because they created the fake term, and they deserve to be ridiculed. Fox news wants your school to stop saying Holiday Season and Winter Break because doing so is committing a War on Christmas. Well we say fuck that. Schools and businesses say "holiday" instead of "Christmas" to celebrate diversity amongst Americans. Many people celebrate different holidays at this time of year, and saying "Happy Holidays" embraces them all, however the dickheads at Fox News want to shove Christmas and Christmas only down your throat. The irony of course is that Christmas itself was STOLEN from past holidays. This information alone is worth conveying to the average Christian who doesn't know where their beliefs came from, and doing so is helping to educate your felllow man.
Christians against Christmas for reasons that I just stated and more:
[quote] how do you justify trying to take a holiday for christians to celebrate what is one of their most important beliefs, the coming of jesus.[/quote]
Jesus Christ never existed. If your most important belief was that pesticide was good for you, I promise you, anybody who cares for you will put your irrational beliefs in check. Well, because we care about people, we're helping to put their ridiculous and irrational beliefs in check.
[quote=Olivia Rival]IT"S A CHRISTIAN FUCKING HOLIDAY YOU CANT FUCKING TAKE AWAY FROM THEM. THATS WHAT I'M CALLING CLOSED MINDED.[/quote]
Why? Give good reason why ignorant, irrational, and unfounded beliefs can't be taken away from someone through use of reason.
Did you read anything at www.endchristmas.com
ok your making too big a deal of this, if you diden't know already Christmas has nothing to do with jesus no matter what you were told, historically Christmas is a totally rip off of the winter solstice and the birth of the sun god and all the traditions that go with it. the story of jesus being born on dec 25th and being born of the virgin marry is all made up to support the bible (they think he was born somewhere in september)
Ya, I heard that they actually think their imaginary friend was born in the summer. On what evidence do they base this? I am going to guess something that rhymes with 'the Christian Pible'.
There are those in theology that think the Dec. 25th date would be false because of things in the scripture that would not fit with a winter birth. However christmas was not always know as christmas or was even a family holiday.
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=mini_home&mini_id=1290
We do not as much want to end christmas as much as keep it confined to the households and people that beleive in god. when commercials and other ways of advertisments blast christmas, kwanza, and hononka everywhere, they are pushing it on people who have no interest in it, or to be associated in it.
So before you all say that we are trying to end christmas think again, you can have your christmas, just keep it to yourselfs.
[quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor][quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor][quote=Olivia Rival][quote=noor]Calling me close-minded is like saying all people (except little kids) are close-minded when it comes to the possibility of the tooth fairy existing. Same thing with the ancient Norse gods.[/quote]
there is a difference between awareness and closed mindedness.[/quote]
What exactly do you mean? I wouldn't call myself close-minded. I was a doubter for about fourteen years before turning explicit atheist, and even now I'd be willing to believe if only I had answers to every single one of my questions.[/quote]
you dont understand. i'm not calling you closed minded. [b]i'm not calling atheism closed minded[/b]. but your analogy is faulty. and thats what i was commenting on. children believe in the the tooth fairy or whatever because they dont know any better. because they are ignorant.
ignorance=unawareness. and if you are saying i'm calling anyone who isn't ignorant closed minded you are very worng[/quote]
Kids believe in the tooth fairy because they don't know any better, that is true. People believed in the ancient Norse gods the same way. Believing in Yahweh is just about the same thing, or at least to me.[/quote]
you just don't fucking get it. I AM NOT CALLING ATHEISM ITSELF CLOSED MINDED. READ MY FUCKING REPLIES. I SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT IN MY LAST REPLY TO YOUR COMMENTS. I AM CALLING ATTITUDES ON THIS SITE FUCKING CLOSED MINDED. LIKE THAT "END CHRISTMAS"
BULLSHIT. IT"S A CHRISTIAN FUCKING HOLIDAY YOU CANT FUCKING TAKE AWAY FROM THEM. THATS WHAT I'M CALLING CLOSED MINDED.
[b]GET IT NOOR? CAUSE I DONT THINK I CAN BREAK IT DOWN ANY EASIER FOR YOU[/b][/quote]
Sounds to me like Olivia Rival is a secret theist...or a future one.
I'll agree that I've met a lot of close-minded people on these forums, but most of them can't spell, have terrible grammar, or/and are ugly. So I don't let it bother me.
As for the whole End Christmas thing, I don't care and I'm not getting involved. Unless a Macy's commercial comes on and says 'Celebrate the birth of the one true Lord with 60% of all cashmere sweaters! Avoid burning in hell with the Jewish, gay and Latino by getting the new Canon Powershot SD650', then I don't really find anything too offensive about addressing one of a country's major demographics.
Latino?
BTW, I heard if you say Latino your a Dem, cause GOP uses hispanic. Probably wrong, but I have never seen it not work.
Hehe, It could just be by region - (Down in southern Utah half of the people just say "Mexican" to refer to anyone from south america (or anyone who looks remotly hispanic (or latino...))
Read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic#.22Hispanic.22_as_a_U.S._ethnic_label
I prefer to be called an american, though.
After all, I'm American Atheist.
Not Latino/Hispanic/Mexican Atheist. :-p
8)
Yes (Woohoo!) america... But many people are not american (are here illegally)
I don't define myself as american... I am american, but by saying so sort of implies that you hold a certian set of values (and to the rest of the world it implies the traditional american steriotypes)
(however saying that I am human is just a meaningless classification... so I dont know how we should be characterized... maby by our haircuts... as far as i know they dont have a negative feeling yet (cept the mullet ... never mind...)
[quote=American Atheist]Latino?[/quote]
I don't know. It came to mind while I was thinking of victims of the militant right, so I wrote it down.
[quote=Guruite]Yes (Woohoo!) america... But many people are not american (are here illegally)
I don't define myself as american... I am american, but by saying so sort of implies that you hold a certian set of values (and to the rest of the world it implies the traditional american steriotypes)
(however saying that I am human is just a meaningless classification... so I dont know how we should be characterized... maby by our haircuts... as far as i know they dont have a negative feeling yet (cept the mullet ... never mind...)[/quote]
I don't say I'm American simply because I don't have my citizenship yet. But I will, soon, so I will be an English-American.
Dual Citizenship FTW.
Umm.. What does FTW mean ...
And if your english... why are you coming here? ... I mean I dont think England is way better but it is certianly not much worse (Or mabey it is... ive never actually studied what life in england is like)
FTW is For the Win
Okay... then what does it have to do with dual citizenship (i must be missing something here...)
[quote=Guruite]Umm.. What does FTW mean ...
And if your english... why are you coming here? ... I mean I dont think England is way better but it is certianly not much worse (Or mabey it is... ive never actually studied what life in england is like)[/quote]
As said previously, 'FTW' is 'for the win', and basically I'm just saying I'm happy to be able to retain both citizenships.
But anyway, I moved here when my father's job transfeered here. I was 11 at the time.
[quote]As said previously, 'FTW' is 'for the win', and basically I'm just saying I'm happy to be able to retain both citizenships.[/quote]
Ok, cool (which country would you rate as the best? ... I realize that you diddnt live in one for a while so..)