[quote=twag]1: Jesus sinned by making himself unclean when he touched the leper and dead
girl (a violation of Levitical law which all Jews were under. Jesus himself
agreed he was under the law.) (Ezekiel 44:25-27,Lev 13:1-8, Lev 5:2-6, Num[/quote]

The verses you quoted are laws about ritual purity, not moral laws.

Further this is also an implicit sign of his divinity, the message he was giving was that not only could cleanse the unclean, but he himself could not contract the uncleanleness.

[quote]2: Jesus promised to return from heaven within the lifetimes of his
listeners – he never did. (Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 25:13, Matthew 10:23)
(I know this can be argued, because people are still following what he taught, but the people who follow him today are not his listeners, just followers of his religion.)[/quote]

Actually he did. Heres a couple decent sites on preterism:

http://www.tektonics.org/esch/eschatology.html

http://www.preteristsite.com/

[quote]3: Jesus is depicted as believing the Old Testament verbatim and therefore invalidates himself since much of the Old Testament can be shown to be false.[/quote]

Really which parts? Besides as a first century Jew would we expect him to not believe the OT.

[quote]personal question: who is excited for Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End?[/quote]

I am, it looks pretty sweet. And now that Jeffrey Rush is back maybe it'll have the flair that the first one did.

Yeah I hear that Pirates is based on the Bible (flat earth theory)

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world [The deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world [Again, the deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

The Earth has pillars?!

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

The Earth has Edges?!

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

"He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Job 37:3)"

"for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (From the NIV Bible, Job 28:24)"

"Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea. (From the NIV Bible, Job 11:9)"

There are more but I think that is enough.

[quote=Dave_G]

Isaiah 11:12 The Earth has Edges?!

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

"He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Job 37:3)"

"for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (From the NIV Bible, Job 28:24)"
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV) [/quote]

I guess all those fantasy writers that still today use the phrase "four corners of the earth" and "ends of the Earth" must be members of the flat earth society.

[quote]Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV) [/quote]

And exactly how does this indicate the shape of the earth. It seems pretty clear Matthew is describing a supernatural vision.

[quote]"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world [The deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world [Again, the deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

The Earth has pillars?!

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

"Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea. (From the NIV Bible, Job 11:9)" [/quote]

Is it just me, or are did all of these come from books of poetry, or from obviously poetical sections of books?

And on that note: nobody wants to discuss my earlier responses? Oh well...

And by the way the Earth does NOT have ends.

[quote=Dave_G]And by the way the Earth does NOT have ends.[/quote]

Did I say it does? The phrase 'ends of the earth' is still used today as an idiom for 'the whole earth.' In fact, the verses you quote make more sense when read that way than read as a literal earth with ends.

[quote=KCahill]Correct. Its still used today. But most people dont say the four corners of the Earth. Thats where it gets wierd.[/quote]

Actually it is. And in the same sense as 'ends of hte earth.'

[quote=Dave_G]And the fact that back then everyone thought the earth was a circle (as apposed to sphere)[/quote]

Or they didnt have seperate words for 'circle' and 'sphere'

[quote]Study science at that time and it will be obvious it means a flat disc.[/quote]

Yea thats pretty much true. I mean, many tought the world was flat, all the way into the Middle Ages and Megellan Voyage.

[quote=Sir-Think-A-Lot][quote=KCahill]Yea thats pretty much true. I mean, many tought the world was flat, all the way into the Middle Ages and Megellan Voyage.[/quote]

You might want check here:

http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm

And here

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth_ch1.html

The idea of a round earth is actually quite ancient(the Greeks were among the first to come to this realization). And was almost universally accepted by the time of Colombus. Critics of Colombus's voyadge were not worried that he would fall off of the edge of hte earth, but that the earth was too big and he wouldnt be able to store enough supplies to make(and in fact they were right, if there hadnt been this huge continent we're standing on he would have starved to death). [/quote]

Isiah was Greek?

Besides this was after he said the Earth was a circle.

[quote=Sir-Think-A-Lot][quote=Dave_G]Isiah was Greek?

Besides this was after he said the Earth was a circle.[/quote]

NO its not clear what Isiah believed in a round earth or not. THe word in question can mean either circle or spehre. And the context doesnt help much in figuring out which he intented.

I admit that he very well [b]could[/b] have been saying that the earth was flat. But he also could have been saying it was round. The only person who knows for sure is Isiah.

In any case my point still stands, by the time of Colombus(in fact probably long before him) it was almost universally known and accepted that the earth was round. [/quote]

Wich of course there is nothing in the Bible to point to a round Earth and plenty to point to a flat earth could you show any verses that make you think that ends of the earth means around or that across really means around?

hey,

sorry if i haven't been giving anyone respones, if anyone wanted to argue with me, ha.
i was in pennsylvania/new jersey/new york for 2 weeks, and i just got my internet back up.

but message me if you tried to debate anything with me so i can know, i kind of forgot what was going on, sorry, a lot of things happened in the short time.

and i saw pirates, it was really good, i love those movies, they better make a fourth one after the ending they lead us into. geez it was amazing.

[quote=Sir-Think-A-Lot]Well we kinda got off track, but I responded with the following post:

[quote=Sir-Think-A-Lot][quote=twag]1: Jesus sinned by making himself unclean when he touched the leper and dead
girl (a violation of Levitical law which all Jews were under. Jesus himself
agreed he was under the law.) (Ezekiel 44:25-27,Lev 13:1-8, Lev 5:2-6, Num[/quote]

The verses you quoted are laws about ritual purity, not moral laws.

Further this is also an implicit sign of his divinity, the message he was giving was that not only could cleanse the unclean, but he himself could not contract the uncleanleness.

[quote]2: Jesus promised to return from heaven within the lifetimes of his
listeners – he never did. (Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 25:13, Matthew 10:23)
(I know this can be argued, because people are still following what he taught, but the people who follow him today are not his listeners, just followers of his religion.)[/quote]

Actually he did. Heres a couple decent sites on preterism:

http://www.tektonics.org/esch/eschatology.html

http://www.preteristsite.com/

[quote]3: Jesus is depicted as believing the Old Testament verbatim and therefore invalidates himself since much of the Old Testament can be shown to be false.[/quote]

Really which parts? Besides as a first century Jew would we expect him to not believe the OT.

[quote]personal question: who is excited for Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End?[/quote]

I am, it looks pretty sweet. And now that Jeffrey Rush is back maybe it'll have the flair that the first one did.
[/quote]
[/quote]

We have 2 words of god here:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/index2.html

i am pretty sure by "the four corners of the earth" they meant four corners such as a square or a rectangle, because they were so primitave that they didn't know the earth was round.

so therefore, the most likely didn't know of the south pole/north pole or the intersections of the equator and the prime meridian lies.

so, it could not be that, because they didn't discover the earth was round until Marco Polo tried to find a passage to china.

if you were in history, you would have learned that [ :

[quote=twag]i am pretty sure by "the four corners of the earth" they meant four corners such as a square or a rectangle, because they were so primitave that they didn't know the earth was round.[/quote]

Or it could be that they were using is symbolicly to refer to 'The whole earth.'

You know like we do today.

[quote=Sir-Think-A-Lot][quote=twag]i am pretty sure by "the four corners of the earth" they meant four corners such as a square or a rectangle, because they were so primitave that they didn't know the earth was round.[/quote]

Or it could be that they were using is symbolicly to refer to 'The whole earth.'

You know like we do today. [/quote]

i don't really refer to "the whole earth" as "the four corners" mainly because i know the earth is a sphere, thus meaning, it can't have corners.

but, i don't know much about this argument, so i don't think i am going to get too heated in it

[quote=AgnosticAtheist1]sorry, but the greeks found out that the earth was round. The knowledge was just lost later, when education was basically gotten rid of. But then the knowledge came back, Christiopher Columbus, after all, was intending to reach India.[/quote]

and also, if that was in response to me, i did not mean to say marco polo, i just got him and columbus confused because they were both going to asia.

[quote=twag]
and also, if that was in response to me, i did not mean to say marco polo, i just got him and columbus confused because they were both going to asia.[/quote]

Dont forget though that by the time of Colombus, a round earth was pretty much common knowldge.

wow, I might have to take back my point. At the time, I was thinking the people writing the bible/OT would have known.

But Erastosthenes only discovered the roundness of the earth in 205 BCE

When was the OT written?

Aristotle and Pythagoras both made similar claims

Aristotle made the claim based on star changes in about 350 BCE

Pythagoras' wasn't widely accepted, namely because it was only on aesthetic grounds.

when was Isaiah written?

As long as it's after 350ish BCE, it was known already

[quote=twag]Here are some reasons I find Christianity to be false:

1: Jesus sinned by making himself unclean when he touched the leper and dead
girl (a violation of Levitical law which all Jews were under. Jesus himself
agreed he was under the law.) (Ezekiel 44:25-27,Lev 13:1-8, Lev 5:2-6, Num
5:1-3, Num 19:11, Matt 9:23-26, Matthew 8:2-4) [/quote]

As God, Jesus worked in the new dispensation. He was above the law. But you warped those texts anyway. Ezekiel 44 says they can't touch dead persons, not lepers. Lev.13 does not say they can't touch them. Lev.5:2 is speaking of animals, not humans. Num. 19 says they can't touch a dead person. And there is no reason to assume the people were still dead at the time Christ touched them. And again, He as Lord was was above the law. He issued in the dispensation of grace.

[quote=twag]2: Jesus promised to return from heaven within the lifetimes of his
listeners – he never did. (Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 25:13, Matthew 10:23)
(I know this can be argued, because people are still following what he taught, but the people who follow him today are not his listeners, just followers of his religion.) [/quote]

lol poor argument. It's a false dichotomy fallacy. The Bible makes no such distinction between followers and listeners. And the text says cleary that those within the generation that see the events He was describing, would see His return. Not the ones who were there with him at that time.

[quote=twag]3: Jesus is depicted as believing the Old Testament verbatim and therefore invalidates himself since much of the Old Testament can be shown to be false.
(silly, he should have known to believe in the new testament!)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/whynotchristian.html
and lastly, i found this essay online, people should read it.[/quote]

See www.answeringinfidels.com

The infidel network is a company of pseudo-scholars. They are atheists with an agenda. They are not recognized by any scholar in the world. Read books by Gleasen Archer in terms of the Old Testament. He was a real scholar and knew around 22 languages.

Richard Carrier is also not a scholar. Watch him get pulverized in debate at www.garyhabermas.com. Listen to his audio radio debate with Habermas and Licona.

[quote=twag]so, any thoughts? lets have a debate.[/quote]

You don't know the definition of the word debate. And you are not even out of high school. In other words, you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

Atheism is not rational at all. In fact, it is the most irrational of all worldviews ever known to mankind. It is irrational to believe everything came from nothing.