I'm... confused about this. My friend committed suicied a bit over a year ago. The pain he caused to his friends is... vast, but I don't know what sort of pain he was in, so I can't say what I think...I used to fully support the right to suicide but now I'm not so sure

Who said life has no purpose? I think my purpose is to make life better for other humans. Creating a symbiotic relationship among humans, you know? But if there is no reason for you to live without god, that it your issue. Don't push it on me.

[quote]
patches,

If life has no purpose anyway (under the atheistic worldview, anyway) then does it really matter if someone kills themself?[/quote]

Who ever said atheist think life has no purpose? I lost a friend in a car addicent and I mourned because he was my friend and I missed him. Saying we believe has no purpose is like saying, we dont have any morals, ethics, or feelings. Where poeple like everyone else.

[quote]In spite of this, though, atheism provides no purpose for your life. See above.[/quote]

Animals are atheist, do they have a purpose? What is your purpose of life as a Christian?

Wait I got it. They were made for the purpose for sacrifice. Psh, ecosystems are irrational to the Bible.

I support the right of suicide. I think that in most circumstances it is the wrong decision. I however would like to (I do not know for sure... I am still thinking about the way I want to go - So I think it would be sorta nice) commit suicide. I mean after I am old and if I am diagnosed with some sort of terminal sickness. Just have a party with my family and friends... and just take some pills -

I think that going in a bubble bath while listening to classic music after you have said goodby to your friends and slipping into a deep sleep painlessly is the best way to go (other than in your sleep)

However, I think that suicide is very sad and that any effort to reguate it would just end in failure

I don't think you guys are understanding what I am talking about.

I am [b]NOT[/b] saying that atheists can't live life as if there is a purpose. That is completely untrue, and that point actually furthers my argument. What I am saying is that [i]if atheism is true[/i], there is no ultimate purpose or significance to your life. You can live life as if there is one, as if you are a valuable example of life. Ultimately however there is not, and you aren't valuable, and you are merely decieving yourself.

[quote=KCahill]Animals are atheist, do they have a purpose? What is your purpose of life as a Christian?[/quote]
That was [i]probably[/i] one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. The only way you can classify animals as "atheists" is if you use a flimsy definition of atheism. Animals do not have the mental capacity to understand who or what God is, and therefore cannot be classified as atheists.

This is like accusing all humans of not believing in the Flying Egyptian Rat of Paidjeifnal. You say, "What is that?" Well, how do you know if you believe in it or not if you've never even heard of it, much less understood it? Once you are presented with the possibility of the Flying Rat's existence, you accept it or reject it. Not before.

My purpose in life as a Christian is to worship God, and in other ways bring him glory, and to bring as many people as I can into fellowship with him as well. And before you even say it, no, I have no problem submitting my life to God. I have no problem with the fact that I am created to worship something else, and nothing about my purpose bothers me in the slightest.

Gregory Koukl wrote an article [url=http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5206]here[/url] that you might find interesting. It's called, "Do Animals Have Souls?" He thinks he has proof that they do.

[quote=American Atheist]If animals have no purpose, I wonder why Noah even bothered making the ark big enough for them.[/quote]
Once again, your confusing [i]belief[/i] in a purpose with an [i]actual[/i] purpose. See above.

But animals do have a purpose...Several, in fact. They can be companions with us. They can be food for us. They can protect us...The list goes on.

[quote=KCahill]Wait I got it. They were made for the purpose for sacrifice. Psh, ecosystems are irrational to the Bible.[/quote]
*rolls eyes*

[quote=patches]The purpose of life is to make the best of your existence. And in helping humanity you also help yourself. For when society as a whole advances so do you. However selfish that may sound.[/quote]
Yes, making the best of your finite and utterly pointless existence. It has no purpose anyway, so you might as well do whatever you feel like, right?

Again, why should you spend your time helping humanity? Why is that considered "good" to you in the first place? For example, there are many drug manufacturers in South America who have more money than you can probably imagine, and they're highly successful in their field. They're not helping humanity...They're bringing it closer to it's demise. Yet they're successful and they probably have, or can get, whatever they want because of their money. Why is that a bad idea, patches?

Hey, I don't care if it is pointless. I choose to do with it what I will. I have entered the agreement among humans. This agreement manifests itself in law, but is much more basic: Do not hurt another person. This is voluntary, but I have chosen to accept it as I have deduced it is me most practical and most ethical. I am not unwavering in this; I could be persuaded otherwise. But because my life is my own, I choose the purpose. My life is the actualization of self- defined goals as to achieve my long- term happiness.

[quote=P-Dunn] Why is that a bad idea, patches?[/quote]

because in order to get the drugs and such they nromally do immoral and unethical things, like gang wars and such. They do not help humanity by doing what they do.

Actually, logically morons are not (they believe in all gods) because they believe that god had a father. This chain would go on forever which means that there are an infinite number of gods that have fathered other gods... which means that there is proably a god named thor who presides over a world of nords - they just dont worship him because he is not director of our world

[quote=KCahill][quote]In spite of this, though, atheism provides no purpose for your life. See above.[/quote]

Animals are atheist, do they have a purpose? What is your purpose of life as a Christian? [/quote]

hmm... sorry for the double post, i didn't catch this til a minute later :( but calling an animal an atheist... even though it CAN fit the definition do you really think it actually matters whether or not they are atheist or not? they can't comprehend or choose to be an atheist or not. so I would have a hard time calling them an atheist

I think that the definition of implicit ateist applies to them... but I would classify an animal as an agnostic.... they do not know in the sense that they do not have the capacity to know. I don't know if this would be more or less correct

- Animals do not have the knowledge base to make any meaningful conclusion about atheism or theism

Even after we know the laws on on the backs of our hands ... there could still be a god behind them. We will still remain agnostic in the strictest sense that we do not know for certain (as we cannot prove a negative)

I think that we have a pretty good idea... but we still don't know a lot about the universe as a whole (I think) ... but as far as normal physics (not in black holes) - we got them down :)

[quote]Animals do not have the mental capacity to understand who or what God is, and therefore cannot be classified as atheists.[/quote]

You believe in an infinite God.
Humans are animals too, and just like dogs and cats, we have a limited brain capacity. We can't know [i]everything[/i]. How could we even begin to comprehend something as infinite as God?

Humans have made so many discoveries, and advanced so much within the past century alone. Back when the "word of God" was first recorded onto paper, bacteria had centuries to go before it would be introduced to man. My point is, how could animals so long ago [i]possibly[/i] be able to comprehend the Almighty God, when we animals today still are unable to grasp many, many things that are finite?

[quote=Guruite][quote]How could we even begin to comprehend something as infinite as God?[/quote]

Umm.... prayer?
[/quote]

There is a reason we can't ... either God doesn't exist or he wouldn't waste his time explaining himself to people who are infinitely more retarded than he is.

That's one thing I've never understood. How are we supposed to be God's children if we won't be able to understand him? To me it makes creating us pointless.

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents here:

[quote]If life has no purpose anyway (under the atheistic worldview, anyway) then does it really matter if someone kills themself?[/quote]
[quote=P-Dunn]The point, though, is if you actually care about making a difference in the world, "no matter how small," then what you need to understand is this. If God does not exist, and we are all merely the products of a harsh universe and a cosmic accident, and we will all die individually and eventually as a species in a relatively short time, then [i]your life has no purpose[/i], and any difference you think you're making also has no purpose.[/quote]

Does life need some sort of infinite purpose? To say that any contributions we make as indivudals are purposeless without expecting an eternal reward is theistic pompousness. I think that in the grand scheme of things, the purpose in life [i]is[/i] to enjoy yourself in the present and make the future a better place where human life is more enjoyable and enlightened. Just because we can't comprehend or affect every aspect of the universe doesn't make our earthly deeds pointless, we are just restricted and are thus forced to meet restricted goals. Living it up and attempting to meet those goals is our purpose, IMO.

[b]I simply cannot see a way for atheism to logically provide any purpose to anyone's life.[/b]

And Christianity would… how? Why would Christinianity, rather than atheism give meaning to someone’s life?
And if you’re going to retort with the whole ‘helping others’, ‘spreading love’ charade---I’ll save you the trouble.

When it comes down to it, Christians often expect a higher morality level in themselves than in atheists.

BULLSHIT. The retards at my Catholic school are not only average or stupid, but they get drunk, get high, like any other man/woman would. Atheist or not. They hate, don’t give a crap about going to church, don’t care if anyone gets hurt, walk by a homeless person, laugh at them afterwards, etc. These kinds of prejudices are, in a way, (although most certainly not to the degree) similar to the racism views.

Asian people are automatically smart.
Transylvanians suck blood.
Christians are good people.
Hahahahah. No.

Back to the whole ‘helping others’ tidbit—if donating some money here and there, or giving sympathetic looks to the horrors of life gives them a purpose—cool.

But atheists can do it just as easily. Maybe even more so.

Me? I don’t have a purpose? I’m not exactly sure what university I want to go to, where, what my profession should be, etc.

But I’m also not hopeless.
And I would say that hope is my meaning for life. The journey. The fun. Suceeding in life and working hard to achieve it. Raising a family, loving them, and experience life.

You only live once.

So why live with the thought that you’ll live forever. (the whole eternity in heaven/hell thing)

[b]Animals are atheist, do they have a purpose? What is your purpose of life as a Christian?[/b]

Under normal circumstances, I would have agreed with you, fellow atheist. However I agree with P-Dunn. I laughed outright at this comment.

I appreciate your connection with animals. I’m a vegetarian, so I sympathize with them whole-heartedly. Not to mention my family has an unhealthy weakness for animals. My grandmother had sixty or so cats (as well as random other raccoons, chinchillas, dogs, etc.)
My family has five pets.

So thanks for sticking up for animals! Yay!

But technically we don’t if they are atheists… if they know what atheism means.
We don’t know if they’re religious.

[b]I one of my old good friends recently comitted suicide and I'd just like to know what other atheists think about suicide. Do you think it is selfish? Do you care at all?[/b]

My grandfather committed suicide. He shot himself in the head. I was about five years old. Unfortunately, I was in the room with him when he did it.

When you lose something, especially in this case of death, it’s unbearably hard. You’d probably want to know the usual ‘why’ or ‘how could I prevent it’.

I didn’t know your friend’s circumstances, so I’m afraid there’s not much advice I can give you.

My opinion is that he is obviously not in hell. He’s just gone. Everyone leaves, and poof they’re gone. Maybe they’re reincarnated. Maybe there’s a society of souls, or another world.

Maybe there’s nothing. And life for that individual just ends abruptly.

Whatever it is, it’s unpreventable, for it must happen at some time. Your friend just chose to end it early.

Anyways, I hope you recover and look at life with a much more enlightened or critical eye.

[b]And even if atheism provides some purpose for life such as "bettering mankind," doesn't suicide just kind of defeat that purpose?[/b]

You might not have meant to, but you associated suicide with atheism only. A girl at my school who will go unnamed of course—her father hung himself not so long ago. Christian.

Easy as that.

[b]No we are not animals, we do have finite brains, but we are not animals. We are created in the image of God. God breathed life into man, unlike animals.[/b]

We are animals, Jesus Freak. And you take the Bible much to literally. Creation is a myth. Don’t argue with that. My religion teacher at my school (an ex-priest by the way) told us this, and provided factual information and reasoning.

And if ‘god’ breathed life into man, one could conclude that this gave them life, correct?

Animals are alive. Am I mistaken?

So therefore, if your whole ‘breathing’ theory ever happened, Goddy Woddy would have definitely done it to the animals too.

And one last thing. I do believe the topic was: “[b]I'd just like to know what other atheists think about suicide…”[/b]

Keyword there: [i][b]ATHEISTS.[/b][/i]

Christians go to church. Your opinions won’t affect our religious beliefs, or rather, lack of them.

[quote]And even if atheism provides some purpose for life such as "bettering mankind," doesn't suicide just kind of defeat that purpose?

You might not have meant to, but you associated suicide with atheism only. A girl at my school who will go unnamed of course—her father hung himself not so long ago. Christian.

Easy as that.[/quote]

No, I did not. I was responding to the fact that it is contradictory to justify suicide and still hold beliefs that life has purpose.

I never said anything about whether or not Christians (or people from any other religions) commit suicide. I only mentioned atheism because that happens to be part of this thread's topic. Christians do not justify suicide. It is not the unforgivable sin, but it is in fact still a sin. And you will be accountable for it just like any other sin.

[quote]No we are not animals, we do have finite brains, but we are not animals. We are created in the image of God. God breathed life into man, unlike animals.

We are animals, Jesus Freak. And you take the Bible much to literally. Creation is a myth. Don’t argue with that. My religion teacher at my school (an ex-priest by the way) told us this, and provided factual information and reasoning.

And if ‘god’ breathed life into man, one could conclude that this gave them life, correct?

Animals are alive. Am I mistaken?

So therefore, if your whole ‘breathing’ theory ever happened, Goddy Woddy would have definitely done it to the animals too.[/quote]

1) What's with the insults? Insulting me only shows that you are at your rope's end with your argument.

2) You said you go to a Catholic school right? I'm a Christian. Of course I am not going to share the same beliefs as an ex-priest of Catholicism. Catholicism is not Christianity, don't argue with that.

3) How am I taking the Bible much too literally? It says in Genesis, and I quote "So God created man in his own image...." Also you'll notice in Genesis it says that "God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds." Then he moved on to creating man. And the whole "breath of life" thing is not something I just made up: "When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

It mentions nothing in the Bible about God breathing the breath of life into animals. All animals are living in a sense, yes. But they were not given the breath of life which was given to us.

[quote]And one last thing. I do believe the topic was: “I'd just like to know what other atheists think about suicide…”

Keyword there: ATHEISTS.

Christians go to church. Your opinions won’t affect our religious beliefs, or rather, lack of them.[/quote]

Is this not a public forum for debating? Hence the name, freethinkingteens.com. I came to see what the atheist view of suicide was and to debate it if it differed from mine.

Maybe I should re-phrase that. Catholicism is most of the time categorized under Christianity (in the sense of a topic). However when the term Christian or Christianity is used, more often than not, it is refering to Protestantism which has many opposing views to Catholicism in things such as the basis of salvation and the fact that Catholics believe that Mary is the mediator between God and man.

[quote]Your words cannot possibly comfort him. The line that separates religions or even having no religion at all is crossed over in almost any situation.

Your idea of helping the guy who started this particular discussion is not what he's looking for.
As you are not atheist, you cannot sympathize.

He wants to know what we, those who share his opinions, have to say.[/quote]

His original words do not show that he is looking for comfort. He asked what people thought about suicide. He asked if people thought it was selfish or if they care at all. I am registered, therefore I can talk.

[quote]How am I taking the Bible much too literally? It says in Genesis, and I quote "So God created man in his own image...."

There are two ways to view the Bible. Contextually or literally. Most choose contextually. However, your reinforcement of the whole 'breathing life' thing is taking the Bible literally.
THUS MY POINT.

Google it.[/quote]

You are right and wrong. There are two main ways to interpret the Bible, as you stated above; however, the correct way to interpret the Bible is not simply by choosing one way or the other. The correct way of interpreting the Bible is by using both ways of viewing, depending on the verse. Creation is something you need to take literally. The parables of Jesus require the application of biblical understanding which only God can grant. Now that I have told you my way of interpretation, you tell me yours. I would like to see how you interpret "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Google is no use here, by the way.

[quote]You've lived a very sheltered life, I presume?
What is your most horrific event?
You have a personal history with suicide?

If not, then please don't act as if you understand the situation.
If so, and if your being honest about your answer, then my opinion of you rises a little higher.

But I still don't understand your reasonings.[/quote]

That is probably one of the most ridiculous presumptions I have ever heard, and quite unfair might I add. Just because I don't justify suicide doesn't mean death has never affected my life in any way.

In fact someone from my school jumped off of the top story in the center of a mall. (and btw I go to a small Christian school, so you know everyone)

One of my dear friends was throw from a car by a drunk driver. He didn't die instantly. His parents eventually decided to pull his life support since he was brain dead.

Two of my grandparents died within the same week. In fact, my granfather died during my grandmother's funeral. I watched as they suffered through cancer. Neither of them could speak to me. I only occasionally heard cries of pain from them. The only thing that helped me through my grandparent's death is the fact that I knew they were saved. Even when they were dying (while they could still speak) they professed Christ as their Savior. They trusted in Him until the end. My grandmother showed me a very important thing. She showed me that even in death, God is still by your side. She taught me how to die. No complaints. Even the week before she died she was praying for people who had colds. She was a woman of faith, and was greatly respected by those around her, as was my grandfather.

So please, don't make assumptions about me.

I personally have a hard time understanding why some parts should be taken literally - for instance

Noah's ark? Did it all happen like that? I mean the world flood (enough water) and all animals on ark?

Adam and Eve? Did the snake talk? Did god really remove Adam's rib?

Story of Job? Did God make a bet with satan?

Did god create the universe in the order that the bible says?

Even when I believed, I would say no to all of the above...

Flood: The earth is not flat, and how in the world would you form coal out of a big boat in 4000 years? (is that how long it is?)

Suicide: This could sound sorta insensitive .. i mean suicide is terrible and all

I heard a statistic that women are 3 times more likely to attempt suicide and men are 3 times more likely to succeed... I don't know if it is true...

Man, I could never commit suicide knowingly... i just am not tough enough... i mean i dont think that I have the guts to kill myself... although I have never been half as depressed as the people that do kill themselves...

I think that I said this... I want to choose when to die... it allowes me an mount of control.. less pain for everyone

I think that dying in a pleasant way 3 weeks (just throwing out a number... it could be somewhere around 6 months or so) or so before it would naturally happen in a not so good way (like in a hospital.. or a nursing home) sounds pretty good to me

I assume and I suppose because my life belongs to me, no one else.. it is not someone else's decision to decide when I die - mine alone, or just random chance (well not so random... no one really lives over a hundred years or so)