Prove God is not real
Offline Sup yall my name is Desmond and I am 17, new here I heard about this stuff on tv. Now I am a christian and have been one for like all my life. I've met alot of ppl of different faiths and beliefs but this atheist thing has gotten to me today.I am gonna say this, I am no perfect christian as no one is but I know God exists and I know Christ is God for certain. You hear about people saying you can't see em you can't smell em and you can't touch him so he's not real but let me ask you this can you see the planet Mars? Can you touch the planet mars? and lastly can you smell the planet? All these questions would be answered no. You may say you seen pictures well same thing with God I can say I heard him talk to me doesn't make it false or true. To say there's no God is saying that without reason why? Because let me ask you this? Do you know anyone or anything that was created from nothing? If you do I'd love to see it, it seems illogical to think that all this we have happened by chance. You may say with all the bad things in the world how can God allow it? Well he's not your babysitter, He's not gonna save everyone from certain doom. Life will go on and He will not stop it. I would like to hear anything from you guys if you would want to say somethin about how God does not exist and I will try my best to answer you. I am starting my own group against this atheist rising. Wanna be rational... let's get rational ;)
1) are Canada's atrocities physically harming England?
If yes, the analogy does not fit, a god cannot be harmed.
If no, then what business has England in intervening?
2) England is not omnipotent. An omnipotent being could single out the bad without hurting the good.
Telling somebody far in advance you will do something does not make it ok. If I tell someone to stop humming or I will kill them, and they keep humming, and I kill them, I am obviously in the wrong.
1) are Canada's atrocities physically harming England?
If yes, the analogy does not fit, a god cannot be harmed.
If no, then what business has England in intervening?
2) England is not omnipotent. An omnipotent being could single out the bad without hurting the good.
Telling somebody far in advance you will do something does not make it ok. If I tell someone to stop humming or I will kill them, and they keep humming, and I kill them, I am obviously in the wrong.
[quote]1) are Canada's atrocities physically harming England?
If yes, the analogy does not fit, a god cannot be harmed.
If no, then what business has England in intervening?[/quote]
Why does it matter if physical harm was involved? Do you really think that the only valid reason for God casting judgment is that he was physically harmed?
[quote]2) England is not omnipotent. An omnipotent being could single out the bad without hurting the good.[/quote]
Which God did, by taking Noah and his family out of the equation.
What you still don't understand is that the Bible says that there was no one that was innocent here. And before you start whining about babies again, in Ancient Near Eastern tradition, it was a common practice of punishing the family for the actions of one.
“Sometimes a whole family might be punished for the actions of one member.” - Professor Rosalie David, Director of the KNH Centre for Biological and Forensic Studies in Egyptology at the University of Manchester.
This is once again reciprocal morality, which is a common theme in the Bible.
[quote]Telling somebody far in advance you will do something does not make it ok. If I tell someone to stop humming or I will kill them, and they keep humming, and I kill them, I am obviously in the wrong.[/quote]
And yet again I remind you of a subtle category difference: You are not in supreme authority, and are not in a position to be able to take life.
Plus, you wouldn't be giving them warnings for 100 years either.
Yes. Physical harm, or perhaps Psychological harm.
And? Why would God act under ancient and horrible moral issues. Even I know better than to do that, an omni-benevolent being ought too.
Iassume the 100 years thing was somewhat of a joke. Seeing as it's rather arbitrary. Plus I could do it, I suppose, if I just got my descendants do follow through. Heck, when our medical technology gets better, people will be able to do that.
See, that's another weird thing, somewhat along the lines of the God's plan thing. You can justify anything under the name of supreme authority. If god had committed mass genocide(not that he ever did...) you could justify it by simply saying he's the supreme authority and had the right to.
[quote]Yes. Physical harm, or perhaps Psychological harm.[/quote]
If that's true, then a judge couldn't convict a murderer unless he had actually tried to murder the judge personally.
Yes, if Cho Seung-Hui went on trial today, I suppose we couldn't convict him, because the judge wouldn't have been shot at. I suppose the reason OJ got off was because he hadn't tried to knife the judge either.
[quote]And? Why would God act under ancient and horrible moral issues. Even I know better than to do that, an omni-benevolent being ought too.[/quote]
The term "omni-benevolent" was invented by George Smith in his atheistic book and has no basis whatsoever in scripture. There are many things God doesn't love, and so he couldn't possibly be "omni-benevolent."
I think it's humorous either way when atheists try to say they "know better" than God. If the Christian God does in fact exist, then why are atheists so arrogant to assume that they would know better than an omniscient, perfectly just being?
[quote]I assume the 100 years thing was somewhat of a joke. Seeing as it's rather arbitrary. Plus I could do it, I suppose, if I just got my descendants do follow through. Heck, when our medical technology gets better, people will be able to do that.[/quote]
Not really. According to the Bible, that was how long it took Noah to build the ark.
[quote]See, that's another weird thing, somewhat along the lines of the God's plan thing. You can justify anything under the name of supreme authority. If god had committed mass genocide(not that he ever did...) you could justify it by simply saying he's the supreme authority and had the right to.[/quote]
Of course you can. God has the right to do anything that doesn't contradict his moral nature, no matter how much we might dislike it.
I guess if there is harm directed at others, that is reason for judging them. But in the example of the ark, the people that are being punished are both the harmers and the harmees.
It would be like a judge sentencing both the victim and the criminal.
Omni-benevolent does not imply love. omni-benevolent simply implies good will towards all.
"If the Christian God does in fact exist, then why are atheists so arrogant to assume that they would know better than an omniscient, perfectly just being?"
Nice strawman. We are not saying we are better than a perfect being, we are saying we know better than this postulated existence, and thus it either cannot be omnipotent or does not exist.
It's like if you say there is a being, which is the tallest possible object. If I find a short object which is taller than that object, it obviously does not exist as you describe it.
If GOd does something, since he is omnipotent, and everything he does is thus a result of perfection, well...
Oh god, the ark. Time to provide some real evidence about that. I frequent hobby shops. The Bismarck is a ship which has models of about a foot long, on a scale of 1:1200. I recently visited the creation museum. According to the measurements provided, they have a model ark, which, from end to end is the length of a room at least 30 times my own heigh, which comes to about...165 feet. According to their claims, this is a 1% scale model. In other words, before pitch, tar, caulking, or any of those other inventions, Noah managed to build a boat more than 13.75 times the size of the largest boats today. Keep in mind WE can't build metal boats that large, especially which can stand up to particularly heavy rain. And we're talking about the freakin' world-wide flood. THat would take like...10 feet of rain per minute(according to raining 40 days and nights and flooding the whole world). That could sink ANYTHING, let alone archaic woodenboats. Those boats would absorb enough water to end the droughts in all the countries in the world :) ok, that last one I just made up completely
Of course God can't violate his own moral nature, anything he does, by definition, would be...his own moral nature?
[quote]I guess if there is harm directed at others, that is reason for judging them. But in the example of the ark, the people that are being punished are both the harmers and the harmees.
It would be like a judge sentencing both the victim and the criminal.[/quote]
First you say that the people that are being punished are harmers [b]and[/b] "harmees." Then you make a distinction between "victim" and "criminal," as if they are seperate. This is, of course, a self-contradiction.
It would be like a judge sentencing two criminals, not a victim and a criminal. Perhaps a criminal who happens to be a victim as well, but is still a criminal in his or her own right.
[quote]Omni-benevolent does not imply love. omni-benevolent simply implies good will towards all.[/quote]
Okay, then. Where in scripture does it say that God will have good will towards all, no matter what the circumstance?
[quote]"If the Christian God does in fact exist, then why are atheists so arrogant to assume that they would know better than an omniscient, perfectly just being?"
Nice strawman. We are not saying we are better than a perfect being,[/quote]
Nice strawman. I was not saying that you said you are "better" than a perfect being. There's a difference between "being better" and "knowing better."
[quote]we are saying we know better than this postulated existence, and thus it either cannot be omnipotent or does not exist.[/quote]
Notice that I said nothing about omnipotence. This is entirely an issue of knowledge.
If the Christian God exists, then why do you assume that you know better than an omniscient being? It's not a strawman at all, assuming you stick by your previous statement: "Why would God act under ancient and horrible moral issues. Even [b]I know better[/b] than to do that."
It's quite simple. You're saying you know better than an omniscient being. But such an idea is incoherent and impossible.
[quote]It's like if you say there is a being, which is the tallest possible object. If I find a short object which is taller than that object, it obviously does not exist as you describe it.[/quote]
But that's completely not what I was saying.
When you say, hypothetically, "Why would God act under ancient and horrible moral issues," then you are allowing the hypothetical assumption that the Christian God exists and operating within that hypothetical, correct? You've said this many times. But this Christian God, of course, is omniscient and just. So in this hypothetical assumption, you can't simulaneously say that you know better than this being, since it's omniscient.
We can safely assume that if the Christian God exists as he is portrayed to, then he has a good reason for whatever he's doing. Since it is omniscient and has a better sence of justice than we do.
[quote]If GOd does something, since he is omnipotent, and everything he does is thus a result of perfection, well...
Oh god, the ark. Time to provide some real evidence about that. I frequent hobby shops. The Bismarck is a ship which has models of about a foot long, on a scale of 1:1200. I recently visited the creation museum. According to the measurements provided, they have a model ark, which, from end to end is the length of a room at least 30 times my own heigh, which comes to about...165 feet. According to their claims, this is a 1% scale model. In other words, before pitch, tar, caulking, or any of those other inventions, Noah managed to build a boat more than 13.75 times the size of the largest boats today. Keep in mind WE can't build metal boats that large, especially which can stand up to particularly heavy rain.[/quote]
Then that's an error on the creation museam's part. That seems much larger than the Biblical proportions given. If we go by the cubit measurements, it's not even as big as the Titanic.
http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/compare_ships/compare_ships.htm
[quote]And we're talking about the freakin' world-wide flood. THat would take like...10 feet of rain per minute(according to raining 40 days and nights and flooding the whole world).[/quote]
Not necessarily. I don't believe the flood was world-wide at all.
[quote]That could sink ANYTHING, let alone archaic woodenboats. Those boats would absorb enough water to end the droughts in all the countries in the world ok, that last one I just made up completely[/quote]
Assuming all this story is historical however, and the flood is actually worldwide, then you are simply excluding the possibility that perhaps God helped Noah build such a ship.
[quote]Of course God can't violate his own moral nature, anything he does, by definition, would be...his own moral nature?[/quote]
If God cannot violate his moral nature, then whatever he does is by definition in the bounds of his moral nature.
[quote=Christfolyfe] Sup yall my name is Desmond and I am 17, new here I heard about this stuff on tv. Now I am a christian and have been one for like all my life. I've met alot of ppl of different faiths and beliefs but this atheist thing has gotten to me today.I am gonna say this, I am no perfect christian as no one is but I know God exists and I know Christ is God for certain. You hear about people saying you can't see em you can't smell em and you can't touch him so he's not real but let me ask you this can you see the planet Mars? Can you touch the planet mars? and lastly can you smell the planet? All these questions would be answered no. You may say you seen pictures well same thing with God I can say I heard him talk to me doesn't make it false or true. To say there's no God is saying that without reason why? Because let me ask you this? Do you know anyone or anything that was created from nothing? If you do I'd love to see it, it seems illogical to think that all this we have happened by chance. You may say with all the bad things in the world how can God allow it? Well he's not your babysitter, He's not gonna save everyone from certain doom. Life will go on and He will not stop it. I would like to hear anything from you guys if you would want to say somethin about how God does not exist and I will try my best to answer you. I am starting my own group against this atheist rising. Wanna be rational... let's get rational ;)[/quote]
the burden of proof isnt on us, bud. we dont have to prove hes not real. YOU are the one making rediculous claims about your imaginary friend existing. how about you prove he IS real?
oh wait, thats impossible, because even if we discount the fact that your god existing defies all logic and everything we know about existance, there IS no proof.
LOL well i have many reasons why i dont believe a god exists. Since you brought up planets christfolyfe then well talk about planets. In your bible it says that god created the moon the earth the stars and the sun (the only things you can see with the technology available at the time) thats all they though existed back then. They had no idea that they had to explain millions of other planets and a never-ending solar system. If god would have gave the men the words to write the bible then he would have told them about all of those other planets and galaxies. Sure it says that god created everything, well thats something that anyone could say because everything is a general word that could describe anything. Next. Your bible starts out that he created "everything" and then as soon as he created the earth he put the animals on the earth. It talks about the whales and common animals that are period for that time and the human. They hadnt discovered dinosar bones yet. As far as the bible teaches, modern people were here before dinosars. thats something that definately isnt true. Whoever the idiot was that wrote the bible had no idea that "Mars was there or that there were dinosar bones under his feet and he wrote the bible strait out of his week imagination.
So let me get this straight, since none of the authors of the books of the Bible mentioned anything about planets dinosaurs, it is automatically false? Please sir (madam?), take an Intro to Philosophy class before you (try to) insult my intelligence. How good sir, does the absence of these things prove a falsehood? Where is the contradiction to reality which would produce a falsehood?
I'd also like to know where you're getting this notion that the Bible teaches that humans were around before dinosaurs. That's quite an assertion that I expect you to follow up on.
Someone tell me this, if there is an all overseeing god who can commit miracles then why the hell are small children starving to death in third world countries all over the world? And why do planes crash carrying babies, children, mothers to be, and people who are mentally handicapped? If there is a god he’s got a sick and twisted sense of humor.
Also why is it that nobody looks down on the christians for committing genocide and slaughtering the Native Americans and stole their land but when Hitler tried to do it to the Jews (who illegibly killed jesus) America had to intervene and put a stop to it like they were humanitarians?!
P.S. Just for the record I’ve got absolutely nothing against the Jews I was merely trying to make a point!
One more thing. I've never read the bible but I thought I once heard that somewhere in there it says that the world will end in 2000. Whatever happen to that exactly?... Cuz umm... We're still here!
[quote=JoshHickman]That is false PDunn. The positive assertion bears the burden of proof. Also, I can see Mars. All science is based on observed phenomenon. [/quote]
Dark matter cant be seen but yet is being taught at colleges and universities. They only know it exists by seeing its effect on things. Same with gravity. cant be seen but its affects can be observed. im sure god is no different.
ok,right off the bat i can see mars.well, i have.it comes around once in awhile.no ones been there but to say no one will in the coming years is probaly false.america is putting tons of money into space exploration.and you heard god talk to you?im gonna go ahead and say thats unethical crap and you are probaly in your own state of faith.no one can prove god is real.NO ONE.no one can also prove hes not.religion isnt needed anywhere.if you think about it the only times ''real'' stuff has happened is in the old times,like sodom and gommorah.stated in the bible.but not in 2009.nothing.its as if after those days god just gave up.or is he waiting?jeahovas witnesses believe that his angels are going to destroy earth.crap.complete crap.religion is offered as a way of thinking,felling good.i live my life fine without some god.yet people feel the need to go on about him as if he really did save thier lives.if it wasnt for parental influence everybody would be an athiest.most assumptions about god are fake.i really doubt that god is sitting in his favorite chair reading your prayers.and if he is,hes not doing anything about it.why pray when u could do the crap yourself?stop relying on stuff that isnt actually there as in you knowing its there for sure.no one can.hey evolution has its flaws too.but in reality heaven or something would be nice.it would be.but if theres nothingness,absulte nothingness,not even your mind,you cant even think about how it would be nice to have a heaven.because your not there.so techniqually either way is fine with me.but as a human i would pick the heaven choice.and god saving people is crap as well.obviously things in life happen.but hye someone did have to create everything.but then who created god?does god need no creator becasue hes a god?but a god has to have a title from somehwere.he just pooped up and said im god?i dont know about that.and if theres a god is it the god everybody thinks it is?maybe thats why stuff doesnt get done.i dont neccasarily do not believe in a god but i do not believe the god people think,and religion.both to me are useless.hey if they help you out thats good,but some people need to understand what the hell there talking about.if 2,000 people stopped believing in god today there would be no differance.life is life.when someone is born his mind does not have to believe anything.i never will.who cares if theres athiests?if god really did everybody wouldnt be an athiest.god isnt,for the most part,real but something people believe in non the less.and athiests have there opinions but some of them are morons just as well.
I CAN PROVE GODD ISNT REAL 1. fundamentalist cristans belive the word is 12,000 years old becuse they added up all the ages of evrybody from the bilbe going back up to adam and eve but it has been proven the world is about 4.6 billons years old and we evolved form apes 2.and this is the kicker the is a one word that will disprove any religon "Dinouars" if the world is 12.000 years and the bible say god made the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th should'nt there be somewere in the bible that says something about them but no there isnt 3.and this is the bounus one fundamentalist cristans belive the bible is the exact word of god and i mean every single word but then they changed the bible form the old testament to the new testament and also you get differnt versions of the bible like king james bible and so on 4. use your brain it is so obivouly that all relgion is horse shite the only people we should worship are the people who try and make the world a better place
Ok so let me ask you this if god is perfect then why did he make lucifer when he know that he was going to rebel and become satan and tempt adam and eve and then they would bite the apple and then boom mandkind becomes corrupt. That doesnt sound like a perfect god. Also if Lucifer rebelled why didnt he kill him rather than cast him down to earth where his creations are? Also since you dont like athiests heres how we feel about religouse people telling us about god, heres an example Im going to give you. Ok so one day I come up to you and tell you theres a lion in my garage but you cant see it, touch it, feel it or do anything to interact with it. But I tell you to have faith its in my garage, are you going to believe me or think Im a wackjob who needs help? Yeah now think about that because even if you didnt beleive there was a lion in my garage which you couldnt do anything to interact with it, it was just there you couldnt tell me I was wrong considering you cant prove Im wrong. Thats how athiests are with religon, we know its not real but we cant prove it, since you cant prove what doesnt exist.
Also if god talks to you then you need to get help because theres people who claim to have voices in their heads and kill people and or their children because they claim god told them too. Also lets not forget that because of religon alot of inocent women were killed during the Salem Which trials because people feared of witches who are from satan. And the crusades were because of a beleived holy city which is jerusalem. And another thing, people hate nazis for beleiving their a superior race but then why is it ok for jews to beleive their holy chosen people of god? When really their corrupt, greedy and just like every other person on this earth.
Do you beleive in santa clause? If you dont then why not I mean you cant prove hes not real, hes just like god he gives you gifts when your good and coal or "Hell" when your bad. You cant prove hes not real but you know Santa isnt real, same with god.
I must voice my opinion... sorry christians.. :/
I do not see how any christian can make themselves believe in a 'loving' god. Clearly you have not read the old testament. The god in the old testament is selfish, conceited, cruel, and he embraces it. He loves it. I want you people who believe in him to read the whole entire bible, and then tell me you still love him.
[quote=Skiesthelimit]
I must voice my opinion... sorry christians.. :/
I do not see how any christian can make themselves believe in a 'loving' god. Clearly you have not read the old testament. The god in the old testament is selfish, conceited, cruel, and he embraces it. He loves it. I want you people who believe in him to read the whole entire bible, and then tell me you still love him.
[/quote]
And this here is the true heart of the matter. I used to be a Lutheran, I was brought up a private church/school and to say that I was devout is an understatement.
When I was a teen I started reading the Bible along with learning more about Martin Luther. By the time I was done I was disgusted. See, like many others that have faith in God, I never really read the Bible and only parts of the Catechism that were required reading at school. I was woefully ignorant to Martin Luther, his life, the reason why he became more involved and to the Bible itself.
I was never taught that Martin Luther struck a deal with Saint Anna to protect him in a lightning storm and in turn he would become a monk, that he said that the Jews should have their homes and synagogues burned to the ground along with having whatever wealth they had taken from them and their liberties curtailed. That when Phillip I wanted to marry his wife's lady-in-waiting Luther said it would be allowed but should be done in secret making him guilty of advocating bigamy and when Phillip I was eventually found out Luther encouraged him to tell a "big, strong lie"
The amount of people who own a Bible is larger than the amount of people who have actually read it cover to cover, we have too many people who claim to know God's word without actually knowing God's word.
This is the problem. They stand behind something they know little about and are brainwashed into thinking that God is a merciful, just God when the Bible clearly shows the opposite.
[quote=AgnosticAtheist1][quote=Christfolyfe] Sup yall my name is Desmond and I am 17, new here I heard about this stuff on tv. Now I am a christian and have been one for like all my life. I've met alot of ppl of different faiths and beliefs but this atheist thing has gotten to me today.I am gonna say this, I am no perfect christian as no one is but I know God exists and I know Christ is God for certain. You hear about people saying you can't see em you can't smell em and you can't touch him so he's not real but let me ask you this can you see the planet Mars? [/quote] Yes. Not just pictures. It is visible at various points in our orbit. Approximately 6 years ago was one such time, and I had to write a paper on it :) [quote]Can you touch the planet mars?[/quote] Yes & No. There are things which can touch it. I cannot because I have not gotten on a rocketship there, but theoretically, it is possible. [quote]and lastly can you smell the planet?[/quote] Again, same. [quote]All these questions would be answered no. You may say you seen pictures well same thing with God I can say I heard him talk to me doesn't make it false or true.[/quote] The difference is I COULD do the above. You cannot do thus with 'God' [quote]To say there's no God is saying that without reason why?[/quote] I have plenty of reasons. Firstly, when making a statement of the truth of a given proposition, one must provide evidence. I cannot PROVE, beyond any doubt, that there is no generic 'god', namely because the generic 'god' can be fit to almost any definition(the loosest example being Einsteinian 'god', nature). However, by looking at any God Theory with any sort of qualities, I can look at the viability of those qualities. For example, Epicurus' Riddle. Omnibenevolence, omnipotence, and omniscience are not compatible. The existence of all three are incompatible with our world which has very much easily preventable(or simply non-creatable danger). Secondly, I see no evidence for God's existence. Each reason a god is needed to explain has fallen to science, and while maybe one day science will lead to the conclusion of God, science and logic are the best methods we have for obtaining truth. At the moment, the world can be explained without appeals to a divine being, and I shall remain on that logical platform. Until positive propositions are put forth, there is no more evidence for a god than for the tooth fairy, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Krishna and Shiva, or the Greek Pantheon. [quote]Because let me ask you this? Do you know anyone or anything that was created from nothing?[/quote] You're asking the wrong question. Do you know anyone or anything that was created period? Things can change form, but as for the 'creation' of matter, we are referring to the beginning of the space-time continuum. To ask what happened BEFORE the beginning of time is simply an impossible proposition, as the idea of 'happening' implies both existence and passage of time. The simplest possible explanation I can think of is this: Long, long, long ago, 'Nothing' exploded, scattering its prime components, matter and anti-matter. I am by no means a physicist, and I do not claim this to be knowledge in the highest form. I do not know where the Big Bang sprung from. And I'm not afraid to claim that I lack such knowledge. But I will not ascribe any given solution to that question unless I have evidence for it. [quote]If you do I'd love to see it, it seems illogical to think that all this we have happened by chance.[/quote] You're misunderstanding the laws of the universe. To say 'by chance' is to grossly misstate the truth. For example, when you drop a rock, it falls down. Not by chance, it does, and always will do that because that is the way the universe works. Secondly(and I assume you are referring to evolution) Evolution also does not work by chance. Things which are better suited to propagate themselves tend to do just that. Say for example there was a game of basketball. I shall take on Michael Jordan. Obviously, I will not win. Perhaps 1/1000000000 times, I will get extremely lucky, be completely on fire, sink every basket, and rise up from my 5'7" to dunk(I wish). This does not mean it is chance. The same holds true for evolution. A slightly more apt organism, over much time, statistically, will propagate itself better. This does not mean that every animal of the species will, just on average. As statistics tells us, while individuals vary greatly, averages tend to find the mean quite quickly(in fact, a survery of 1500 people is accurate to +/- 3% even if the size of the population it estimates is a trillion(or any number) of people). If on average, the individuals do better, the species will do better(or even not the species, just the subspecies which contains more potent qualities,such as a slightly longer tail. As for the formation of complex organs, gradual additions are good enough to build up from something small, into more complexity. This is seen in eyes. Many animals have light sensitive spots, but cannot 'see' this progresses all the way up(not to our eye) but to the hawks, which can see a bug clearly from hundreds of feet away. The eye is not perfect, however. It has blind spots, it has inefficiencies, and most strangely, it seems to build upon the past eye models. This is most clealry accented in the hands, which across most species, have the same archaic structure, suggesting homology(same ancestry). [quote]You may say with all the bad things in the world how can God allow it? Well he's not your babysitter, He's not gonna save everyone from certain doom. Life will go on and He will not stop it.[/quote] This rules him out as omnibenevolent. An omnibenevolent God would stop all evils. This is not to say a God does not exist, just that if there is one, he's not completely loving/nice. However, my specialty is in the more scientific, logician style arguments, as those are more concrete. My conclusion, therefore, will refer to my prior two arguments. As we haev a method of finding out how the world works, we ought use that method. Faith, on the other hand, is not very useful for determining outcomes, as faith canbe held in anything, the flip of a coin, for example. It may be correct sometimes, it may be incorrect sometimes, but it is not the right method for determining truths. [/quote] [quote]I would like to hear anything from you guys if you would want to say somethin about how God does not exist and I will try my best to answer you. I am starting my own group against this atheist rising. Wanna be rational... let's get rational ;)[/quote] On the other hand, I would like to thank you for coming on to this forum and being civil. It's quite refreshing. On average, I get 3 or 4 hate messages from random people weekly, and FAR more emails, and I am not a high-profile atheist. I can only imagine the stress on such people as Sam Harris, or Richard Dawkins(or even our own Rook Hawkins or Brian Sapient). This, the earnest discussion of ideas between people of differing values, is part of what the Freethinker movement is about. Perhaps there is a God(although, do not let this mislead you into thinking I think it likely, or even possible in terms of probability), but if there is, we should be led to it through logic and science, not archaic faiths. I would like to make a comment that perhaps your group should not be against the atheist movement. Movements which are anti-movement tend to have little value, instead, a movement about determinin the truth, promoting honest, rational discussion, and an open environment are far more important to the advancement of man and society.[/quote]
you said that because God does not stop evil that that makes him evil but if God did not allow evil then he would not be allowing free will to His creations (us) and therefore that in itself would be evil
If someone were to come to you today and say, "I am God!", what would you do? Yes, you would immediately ask for proof. Of course you would. And you would not want goofy proof.You would want real, solid, tangible proof. No normal person, and I mean no one, would accept anything less than rock solid proof from a person who claims to be God. Why should it be any different with Jesus? Jesus was a man who claims to be God. If he is God, then he ought to be able to prove it in a real, inimitable way. If he cannot prove it then, quite clearly, he is not God. A Christian would say, "But Jesus HAS proven it! Just look at all of the miracles he did in the Bible! He healed the sick! He changed water into wine! That PROVES that Jesus is the Lord!" Does that make sense to you? Imagine that someone, today, were to come up to you and say, "I am God, and I will prove that I am God by healing the sick and turning water into wine!" What would you say? Be honest. You would not believe this person because: Everyone has seen all sorts of "faith healers" who can "heal" the sick. And we all know that this sort of "healing" is quackery. If it were true, then we would not need doctors, hospitals or prescription medicines. Turning water into wine... Doesn't that sound like something that a B-grade David-Copperfield-wannabe magician would do in a nightclub act? There are a dozen ways that you could stage things to make it look like water is turning into wine. There is no reason why a normal person would accept a magic trick as proof that someone is God. Neither of these miracles can be scientifically tested today. Not one of Jesus' miracles left any tangible evidence for scientists to study. It is as simple as that. If someone claimed to be God today, you would never believe it if the evidence consisted of faith healing and magic tricks. Never. Yet billions of people claim that Jesus' faith healing and magic tricks prove that he is God. Let's imagine that Jesus truly is God. What might he have done to prove it? He could have started by taking one of his most famous quotes from the Bible and acting on it. In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says quite clearly: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you." To prove that he is God, Jesus would have moved a mountain. Especially since it is so easy. And Jesus would have written something down to explain himself. Here's what the first page of Jesus' book might have looked like: My name is Jesus, and I am God. I know there are a lot of people out there who will doubt that I am God, so let me start off by proving it to you. Take a look at Mount Sinai. Everyone knows that, until today, Mount Sinai stood near here. It is the mountain where God, my father, gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Mount Sinai vanished this morning, and what was left in its place was a perfectly smooth, polished stone base measuring four miles square. Hundreds of years from now, people will find that Mount Sinai landed near a place that will be called Newark, New Jersey. When scientists dig into the mountain, they will find that the bottom of the mountain is also completely smooth and polished, and that the bottom of the mountain in New Jersey perfectly matches the polished plain nearby. Scientists will be able to align the mountain and the plain, looking at it rock crystal by rock crystal at a microscopic level. I have said many times that, if you have faith, you can move mountains. I moved Mount Sinai to show how easy it is, and to prove that I am God. I know that that may not be enough, so let me offer a second proof. If you draw a circle, you know that there is distance across the circle. Let us call it the diameter of the circle. There is also a distance around the outside of the circle. Let us call it the circumference. If you divide the circumference by the diameter, you get another number. Let us call it Pi, and its first 6 digits are 3.14159. Pi is an irrational number. It is a number that is made up of an infinite number of non-repeating digits. There will come a day when machines called computers will calculate billions of digits of Pi. If you calculate Pi out to the millionth trillionth digit, here is what you will find: 9823456451237823492278583495083498745.... Now, having proven that I am God to any rational being, through my documentable movement of a mountain and through my foreknowledge of Pi at the millionth trillionth position, here is what I want to say to the human race as your creator, and as the creator of the universe... Wouldn't that be awesome and amazing? If we had such a book, and if Mount Sinai had actually moved, then there would be no questions about Jesus. We would all believe that he is God. How could we not? Imagine what such a book would say on the following pages. A book like that, I am sure, would leave all of us in awe. Why would Jesus not do that? God, supposedly, has already written a book called the Bible. And God, supposedly, has already done all sorts of things according to that book. God, supposedly, parted the Red Sea, carved the Ten Commandments into stone, went to the trouble to incarnate himself, etc. So why not have Jesus write a book, and leave behind real, tangible evidence for all of us to see? For any normal, rational person, the reason is obvious -- God is imaginary. We would not believe that anyone today is God without concrete proof. Jesus doesn't get a pass because he lived 2,000 years ago. Jesus, if he existed at all, was a human being just like you and me. All of the stories in the Bible are just that -- stories. Oh, and creating a group against atheism is EXTREMELY intolerable toward other religions (even though Atheism is to religion what bald is to hair color). Atheism, also, is not a 'rising'. It is a belief, or lack there of, a God. Because it makes NO SENSE. I hope you opened your eyes a little you ignorant little moron.
I do not believe in god because there is not proof that that it ever exist. I do not want to be rude to you, because you are Christian but I will make you sad or w/e. Today I asked a friend if he believed in god. He said he does, only because he was Christian, "That's part of being a Christian." Not only can I not prove god is real, you cannot either. Mars... yes, we've seen Mars. We have pictures of it and we know that Mars exists and is similar to Earth. Mainly because we've seen it in "space." Of course we have not seen it on Earth, you may have seen the moon though. Did you know Mars is tilted like Earth - which means it has seasons like us. This world is all about science now, not God. <I know it's not right to start a sentence with because...> Because we can explain why we died, like a gunner missing his shot at his victim and mysteriously died does not explain anything about gods or his punishment. He may have died simple because of an heart attack. <No, no such thing as god have messed around with his heart.> Because there are many proofs of Mars existing, I have beaten you, slightly proofing you that God isn't real. Like you said, you can't hear, touch, see, or smell god. But can you see, touch, smell, or hear the Sun? You may see the sun, as if you thought, but if you truly see it, you'd be blind. There are many theories of the sun forming by itself or a piece detached from another planet, but there isn't a true theory of the doing of God. God has nothing to do with Earth. Ghosts, are they real? No. Just like god, they were made up. I also cannot believe there's such thing as religion. In the holocaust, many Jews had risked their lives to give other Jews hope. They gave them hope by lying. In "Jacob the Liar," Jacob had died, saying he had a radio and that the Russians were close by. This is an example of giving hope. It's a lie, but many people had regained their faith in living. The word God may have saved many by giving them faith, but it's a lie.
I do now believe in god, please do comment, I really am defiant against the word God. I am by the name Rem, currently 13 years old and here to challenge you. I know I'm late, but I was around ten, so don't back out on be because this is a late post. Plox.
Oh yeah, I've looked at that stupid statement of yours back there when i reread your post. I'm asking you, can you smell Earth? I don't mind if you give me something that has to do with god either in the "Can you smell Earth" question, because I will use Science on you.
"FEAR THE SCIENCE."