Nicely put...only thing is that God is not incharge of Hell the devil is. But the fact of you saying that God could not create pure evil without destroying it makes that point irrelivant.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Albert Einstein

Bryan

God is in charge of Hell. He's in charge of the devil. He's in charge of everything.

www.myspace.com/nickpoling

Do you write all these essays yourself because they are pretty good.

even though everything there might be/is true, it's the type of thing that makes me mad and embarrased.

oh and,

[quote]3. If you believe in any type of fate, or “God’s great plan”, then that is also a contradiction. As stated before, Christians believe in an all knowing and all loving God. If you also believe in some type of fate, then you must believe that our futures are already planned out (that’s what fate is after all) and therefore whatever happens to us ultimately is what god intended, and our meaning to our lives. If that is true, people who go to Hell were planned and destined to go there by God. That must mean that God created some people specifically to go to hell and burn for all of eternity without chance of redemption. What good god would do this? No good god would. Just as stated in the second paragraph of this essay, God would not do this if he didn’t enjoy it, and if he did enjoy it, he wouldn’t be good, therefore contradicting your belief system, and your entire religion, rendering it useless and completely illogical.[/quote]

haha yeah!!
and if you ever get any replies from christians, they're gonna be like "oh no, that's why god gave you choices, so you can go down the RIGHT PATH and believe in something that doesn't exist or you could go down the WRONG PATH and have no belief at all"

that pisses me off SO much, when they say things like that.

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Yes, I write all these myself. Thanks. :)

"Even though everything there might be/is true, it's the type of thing that makes me mad and embarrased."

... What's wrong with you?

I agree this and your others are incredible. Like i've said about another one of your essays, i have so much respect for you lol.

One of the few that do. lol

First off, Nick_Poling definetely deserves mass amounts of credit for his arguement. I don't want this to bash him in any way, I mean this as consrtuctive criticism. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, because I live in a family of catholics, and I debate with them about religion, and I come across some interesting arguements. I hope that in reading these (Nick, I'm talking to you), you can enhance your essay and make it even better. I am an atheist, and I just want to see this already gleeming piece of material get even better. Now, to play "Devil's Advocate"...

Arguement 1. God is a forgiving god, yes, but also a wrathful one. Would a forgiving god flood the planet save a handful of the population in Noah's Ark? Would He have allowed Moses to bring curses to Egypt? God is very extreme when it comes to His feelings. Either really, really, pumped-up-on-happy-gas happy, or really, really, i'm-so-pissed-off-i'm-gonna-send-you-to-hell angry. In other words, you can't say that just because God is ever merciful, that He won't send people to hell. Because according to the Bible (and look at that Old Testament), he will. You assume to much. In your arguements (if you want them to be affective and to grip christians, jew, or any other religious people by the throat), NEVER assume what God is. You have to approach it more from their angle, and instead of shouting, "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU IDIOTS?!?!", you have to show them, and let them say , "Oh, well that was a silly mistake." Believe me, I worked my dad to agnostic. And I'm even getting my mother, who wouldn't talk to me for a month after I came out.

Arguement 2. Again, you assume that Christians will think that atheists are people. They are trained to know that all non-Christians go to hell. It's like raising a child to know that the sky is red, the grass is purple, and Earth is shaped like an ice cream cone. There is no way you can just say, "Well, you ae a horrible person to believe this." The fact is, they do believe it, and they have since childbirth. You can't sway someone by putting down their belief.

Arguement 3. Again, I spoke about Hell in Arguement 1. My point is that, as much as your facts are true, they do not prove hells non-existance, and will only serve to anger Christians. I hope this helps you, and anyone else who plans on writing an artile about falsifying religion. But keep up your style Nick, take my input, and I hope to read more of your work.

- Matt

Hey Nick, I must agree with Matt, if you are going to argue against what Christians believe you need to come at the argument from their angle. For example with the whole loving god and hell thing, the Christian might say that hell is the place for those who have rejected god’s love. So hell is a place where you have chosen to go that lacks love and is full of selfishness (of something like that). They might even say that god loves you so much that he will not force his love on you and that he will forgive any sin as long as you ask for forgiveness. And I’ve heard them say that the sin against the holy spirit is when you die thinking you have done something so bad that god is not able to forgive you.

But I have a question for you that I’ve struggled with, if there is no god then there is no heaven. So it seems that we just turn into nothing after we die and maybe our molecules spread in the earth and become bits of other things, be we no longer exist, we are nothing except maybe a blade or two of grass that some cow eats then we become fertilizer. If we are all going to end up as nothing more than “cow chips” then who cares if there is a god or not? Why even waste what little time we have to live arguing if god exists? What difference does our life make at all? Some people say that others will remember them after they die, but who are they fooling? If all we are cow dung, then who cares that others remember us?

I'm not sure whether that question was directed towards myself, or Nick, so I'll answer anyway. It is my belief that there is no afterlife, and therefore we will all be (as you have bleakly put it) cow dung in the future. So, why bother? And it is a good question, one which I have spent countless hours debating and brooding over.

I came to a conclusion (perhaps the right one, who knows) not too long ago, and I hope it can help you or anyone else reading this. I looked around me and saw that I was one of over a billion people. That's a lot of people. Being passive, I saw that the world in which we live is not. I decided to give my life a purpose, and that purpose is to educate humans about violence, and soon other things came into the picture, like politics and religion (the reason I come to this website).

I don't want remembrance or fame, I want to know that my actions will make the lives of future generations happier, because humans inherently are survivors, and will do so for a while. I hope this helps you, Rich. If you wish to continue the discussion, please don't hesitate to e-mail me.

- Matt

Argument 1: I'm not the one assuming who God is. They are. They say he's all loving, but no all-loving God would send anyone to Hell. Thus my point.

Argument 2: I can, however, sway them away from belief by proving them wrong. Which I did. I can insult afterwards if I wish.

Argument 3: Yes, I did prove Hell's non-existence. How didn't I?

"If we are all going to end up as nothing more than 'cow chips' then who cares if there is a god or not? Why even waste what little time we have to live arguing if god exists? What difference does our life make at all? "

So, you're saying there's no purpose without heaven? I hope you don't actually believe this... That would be sad.

I care about others. I realise that religion is doing harm to myself and others. I'm fighting it. End of story. Not so hard to understand. It's for my happiness, and other's happiness, and for the future of mankind.

Okay, I can understand where you are coming from Nick. You are coming from the point of view of an atheist, and your essay screams it. I'm fine with that. Unfortunately, non-atheists won't be. You have to put yourself in the shoes of someone who does believe in God, and pick part the religion, instead of bashing it. Other atheists will of course praise it, because we know what you are talking about, and can relate to it and back it up. However, if you don't speak Italian, how can you talk to Venicians? In other words, if you can't see things from their point of view, speak their language so to say, then you can talk and talk all you want, but they won't get any of it. I know it's hard and sounds dumb, but if you try to believe in God for a moment, you can really pick apart the religion much better and from a much more logical standpoint that rational people will get and act upon (thus creating more atheists). But your essay is too angry, and the people that I think you want reading this are going to get very turned off by it. If you wrote it when you were at a more calm state, I think it would be much more effective. Otherwise, good stuff.

Like I said, I was just being honest. I wasn't trying to deconvert Christians, I was merely proving that Hell cannot exist. And I succeeded. I proved that Hell is a myth. Wether they accept it or not is not my fault... The truth is right there, staring at them.

Like I said, it's about honesty. Yes, I was angry. But I don't care.

I see things from the believers point of view all the time (and am pretty damn sure I know more about it than you), but I didn't write this for them. I wrote this for two reasons: To rally the teen atheists and to reaffirm their atheism.

Besides, there's barely a "point of view" here at all. This is just the truth. Uncensored. THAT'S WHAT I WANTED IT TO BE. I may redo this later to help deconvert more theists, but that's not what this article is here for. This is Freethinking Teens. Not Hardcore Christian Teens of Myspace or something.

Very good essay...except you spelled latter wrong. You typed later.

You keep saying that you succeeded, but I just don't see where. I see all things that I agree with, but I don't see the falsification of Hell. I see Hell as false due to my beliefs, but I don't see it in your essay. I've read it countless times, and I'm trying to look for it, and though it's partly there, as soon as you get close to it, you start bashing Christians, which you have every right to do. That does NOT however, disprove Hell's existance. You try to disprove it based on morality, but it's not enough to break faith. In order to disprove Hell, you have to grasp someone's faith and shatter it. You have to wake them up from an illusion that they've lived in their whole lives. If you will go along with my metaphor, you have to give them the little red pill that will take them out of "the matrix" and into the real world. I don't mean to bash you in any way, and if this comes across that way, I apologize; I realize I've given a few comments critisizing your work. I'm only trying to catch your meaning, and see how you have disproven Hell.

I suppose your argument is interesting. I do not agree with the others that your essay writing is amazing. It isn't. It is agressive and poor at best. No reasonable individual would take your argument seriously because you gave it too agressively. Which is a pity as you have some thought provoking points.

No matter how many atheists i meet i am always amused by their arguments. You spend your time trying to tame beleif and turn people into rational beings. Which is fine except most people turn to beleif because reason is either too difficult for them or too depressing. Those sorts of people find solace in beleif and to attempt to deny solace is somewhat cruel to say the least. That in itself only reinforces the idea that atheists are the ones destined to be sent to hell. It makes you sound very cruel and unforgiving.

Which is why i prefer discussion as opposed to argument. But some of us are just more rational and intelligent than others. I hope in time you will all realise the futility of your actions and allow people to realise truth asnd reason at their own pace rather than imposing it on them.

Onto the actual essay. What does it matter if the punishment fits the crime. i have never heard of God as being just. He is the boss (if he exists) and can do as he pleases. For all we know beleif is just a form of control he (or she) devised. And as rational beings are the greatest enemy of beleif God feels a compulsion to punish them in the worst form God can so as to stop people from being reasonable. Another form of control.

Look beyond the bible in the future. In all liklihood the bible has many parts which are wrong or exagerated even if in the end it turns ou God is real. The bible was written by men and women. We make mistakes and to take every line as being as truthful and as wothwhile as others is foolish at best. Even the finest writers make a typo or two and occasionally have a bad day - as i gather you had the day you wrote this.

It is nice to hear you are doing philosophy though - we always need new members for the flock.

For my money you have merely proved the bible is either wrong or at least flawed in parts. Well done but the phrase woopdy doo springs to mind. In the future i advise you spend your time trying to disprove God looking at all the ideas, not just the christian one.

Happy hunting

I'm so showing my satanic friends this little essay, now go work on Yahweh and Allah and the like ok... ok

:jawdrop: :)

a series of questions i would like you to answer ...

Why don't humans deserve hell? (btw the chance of redemption comes before humans are sent to hell)

What is good and what is bad? Aren't these mostly derived from opinion?

Can we, humans, hold God, the almighty creator of the universe, to our human standards?

Are all sins forgiven in Christianity? Of course not. (btw every Christian already knows that there is one unforgivable sin; it's kind of a basic teaching)

If a person murders and rapes with the intention of saying sorry afterwards, does that not make that apology untrue repentance (btw true repentance is a requirement of salvation)?

And finally, what is the meaning and purpose of life?

Fine, instead, let's hold 'God' to his standards. 'Thou shalt not kill'... oh wait, he does... a lot...

those would be his standards for humans ...

AgnosticAtheist1's point was that God is a hypocrite.

Thanks for pointing that out, as if it wasn't obvious enough.

And again you just brought God to a human level.

Because humans made him up.

Duh.

You know what. His right we should instead explain God at a human level, we'll do it at a "God" level then. He's a little:

You cant kill people, but I can.

Its bad to commit rape, murder, stealing but its okay for me to watch.

I'll create a son, but tell no one he will come; you'll have to believe the guy in Jersuleam doing magic tricks.

Im the only God, but I'll let civilzations worship other gods before they recongize me.

Unlike other gods, I have no name; just call me God.

I'll make a group of people my chosen people, then watch then turn to slavery (which didnt happen outside OT) and watch 6 million get massacred in the 1930s and 40s.

[quote]Its bad to commit rape, murder, stealing but its okay for me to watch.[/quote]
Actually he holds us accountable for every sin we commit, whether or not we are saved.

[quote]I'll create a son, but tell no one he will come; you'll have to believe the guy in Jersuleam doing magic tricks.[/quote]
He didn't let anyone know? Ha, how wrong can you be? Prophets like Isaiah prophecied the coming of the messiah. What the heck do you think the Jews were waiting for in the first place?
[quote]
Im the only God, but I'll let civilzations worship other gods before they recongize me.
[/quote]
Couldn't this be said about any other religion as well? (by the way this is why missionaries exist)

[quote]Unlike other gods, I have no name; just call me God.[/quote]
These should be enough names for you:

Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Also he is called things such as Lion of Judah, Lily of the Valley, Rose of Sharon, Abba Father, Holy Spirit, and many other names throughout the entire Bible. By the way ... why does it matter what we call him?

[quote]
I'll make a group of people my chosen people, then watch then turn to slavery (which didnt happen outside OT) and watch 6 million get massacred in the 1930s and 40s.
[/quote]
What do you mean the slavery of the Jews didn't happen outside of the Old Testament? Can you prove that? And God allowed the Jews to be enslaved only because they denied him and began to use pagan practices. Also you'll notice in the book of Judges, their were several leaders elected by God to straighten out and deliver the Jews from oppression.

By the way when the Jews denied Christ as the Messiah they lost the priviledge of being his people. Also the bible states that those who follow God would suffer.

I salute your logic!

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"The idea of the Christian’s Hell is a huge contradictory, because for there to be that Hell, there must be a God. In Christian mythology, God is all knowing, and a very good God who created morals and what is right and wrong. If God is all knowing and all good, than he defiantly would not bestow this punishment on ANYONE. No half-way decent God would, because that would be simply pure evil. And if God is all knowing, he knows that it is pure evil, and he would only do this if he enjoyed it, making him pure evil. Therefore contradicting the Christians view of God, their entire religion, thus also their belief in Hell."

Unfortunately for you Nick, you haven't taken enough time to find out what God is actually like as the Bible and as learned Christians know Him to be. You have assumed that God is only all knowing and all good, when in fact, biblically He is the perfect judge, He is just, He is love, He is holy, He is not a weak or tame God but He literally sits in Heaven and does what pleases Him. Because He is a perfect judge, His judgements are perfect. Therefore perfect punishment is required for sin, which is eternity in torturous hell. However, because He is also perfect love which is self sacrificing, He made the perfect sacrifice, Jesus, who took the punishment for mankind on His own shoulders on the cross. Now those who accept Jesus' sacrifice as payment for their sin are seen as holy by God (which means separated from sin), but those who deny Jesus' sacrifice for their lives are seen as sinful.

The flaw being in your first point that you did not look at the attributes of God holistically, i.e. He can still be a good God and send people to Hell. Maybe if He didn't provide a way out then His goodness would be more in question, but as it is, humanity did not deserve the sacrifice of Jesus but God in His grace gave anyway so that instead of everyone spending eternity in Hell, everyone get a chance to choose Him and get eternal life.... and that is a thousand times better than even the best life here on earth. I mean how bad can a God like that be?

"To put it simply, if you have just read this and are still Christian, you are either incredibly dim-witted or in complete denial of reality, therefore making you insane. This very essay, with the help of you own illogical faith, has irrefutably proven by means of reason that Christians are either crazy or stupid. Or both."

It is funny that you think that you have irrefutably proven anything in this first point that is so potent with your lack of research and understanding that it would cause Christians to think twice about their faith, let alone abandon it. It's arguments like these that make Christian's more sure that what they believe is solid and credible because the alternative, (your essay) is such an unbelievably unattractive option.

Please if you must create such essays out of the burning passion on your heart (or anger as it may seem) then please unleash your energy on some good solid study from both sides of the argument before you form an opinion and then go screaming it around the internet and calling it 'irrefutable.'