Jen thinks not believing in god is dumb (you respond)

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Jen thinks not believing in god is dumb (you respond)

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----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Jennica
Date: Sep 22, 2006 1:28 PM

i think that not believing in God is one of the most dumb things i've ever heard of. there's nothing wrong with believing in God, and in fact a lot of good can come from it. where do you think morals come from? where do you think it was deemed ok or not ok to commit murder or lie to your friends, or steal from someone else? you didn't come up with that on your own, it had to be taught to you at some point. you don't have to be taught how to be bad, it's a natural thing. you color on the walls when you're 3, you rip up papers that your parents needed, they say "don't touch" and your finger reaches up and does it anyway. they don't have to teach you to ignore the word "no". that's the easy part. the hard part is resisting the urge to do the wrong thing. so, morality comes from somewhere...right and wrong come from somewhere, and apparently not from a free thinking teen. i'm not here to be bashed on my opinion, or to be called an idiot, or a christian kid who is closed minded, because i'm not. i'm really interested in what others think about what belief systems are out there, and i'd be interest to talk with you, if you'll talk with me without insulting me, or calling me stupid or an idiot. respect is also a moral thing, so if you were left to figure that one out on your own, without anyone helping you, then i don't expect to receive it here.
curious
jen


Derevirn
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For starters just saying

For starters just saying that something is dumb doesn't automatically make it so. What would you think about believing in Tezcatlipoca (one of the countless gods people used to believe in the past)? You would think it's totally ridiculous of course. What's the difference with the Christian god? Absolutely none! There are many wrong things that derive from theism, I think the families of the 9/11 victims would agree with that... Inherent morals (empathy) were defined by natural selection and especially reciprocity and kin selection (or maybe even group selection, there's a lot of debate on that subject). You can see many examples of primitive morality and social structure in the animal kingdom (like dolphins, apes and wolves). You don't think that those animals believe in God, do you? All religions and moral codes originate from our inherent moral instincts and are shaped by various other factors. So religion is an effect, not a cause of morality. We would be truly pathetic creatures if we needed a supernatural "cop" above our heads to be good and loving to each other...


Nick
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“i think that not

“i think that not believing in God is one of the most dumb things i've ever heard of.”

Well, I KNOW believing in a God is the most retarded thing one could possibly do, because it makes no sense, blind faith is in no way intelligent, and it stops critical thinking in people’s minds. Now, why do you think not believing is dumb? I would expect you to defend your position rather than just idiotically making a bald assertion.

“there's nothing wrong with believing in God, and in fact a lot of good can come from it.”

Okay, so you’re not going to say why you think not believing is wrong. Oh well. I guess you can’t defend what’s not true. I guess all you can do is avoid thinking and avoid explanations and just ‘believe,’ right?

Faith has caused more pain and destruction and wars and bigotry and intolerance and scientific obstacles than anything else in the world. It’s evil. You need to wake up.

“where do you think morals come from? where do you think it was deemed ok or not ok to commit murder or lie to your friends, or steal from someone else?”

Evolution. People who cooperated lasted longer and spread more “cooperative” genes. Survival of the fittest. Randomly killing someone isn’t the smartest thing to do if you want to reproduce.

“you didn't come up with that on your own, it had to be taught to you at some point. you don't have to be taught how to be bad, it's a natural thing. you color on the walls when you're 3, you rip up papers that your parents needed, they say "don't touch" and your finger reaches up and does it anyway.”

We are born with morals. We don’t know that coloring on the wall is bad until someone tells us. Then we don’t do it. We are not taught morals; we are taught that those little things that aren’t naturally programmed into us are bad, such as finding pretty colors and writing on walls.

You are saying that if someone isn’t taught these things, like if they grow up in the wild, they will kill and rape and be completely evil. That’s ludicrous. Use common sense.

“they don't have to teach you to ignore the word "no". that's the easy part. the hard part is resisting the urge to do the wrong thing. so, morality comes from somewhere...right and wrong come from somewhere, and apparently not from a free thinking teen.”

Okay, so your reasoning is this: Parents teach us not to be bad... So... God must exist? Wow. It’s funny that you actually think you’re right. It’s blatantly obvious that any sane person would realize that your arguments not only do not follow anything you said, but contradict themselves and offer no refutation to our lifestyle, nor any explanation or justification for yours. You aren’t even thinking any coherent thoughts.

“i'm not here to be bashed on my opinion, or to be called an idiot, or a christian kid who is closed minded, because i'm not.”

Yes, you are. You are obviously brainwashed to be close-minded. You would have already found the flaws in your own reasoning if you were unbiased, but you lie to yourself and push back any rationality because you’ve been trained that way. Your mind is closed shut.

“i'm really interested in what others think about what belief systems are out there, and i'd be interest to talk with you, if you'll talk with me without insulting me, or calling me stupid or an idiot.”

If you don’t want to be called an idiot, stop being one.

“respect is also a moral thing, so if you were left to figure that one out on your own, without anyone helping you, then i don't expect to receive it here.”

Nice, subtle insult there. I like the fact that you’re a complete hypocrite, calling our way of life ‘dumb’ and then immediately saying how we shouldn’t call you dumb and how if we do than we’re immoral. You say that we make no sense, and yet you offer absolutely no type of argument for your beliefs. Your message is the equivalent of just mailing us: “YOU’RE STUPID! I’M RIGHT! YOU’RE WRONG! RESPECT ME NOW, OR YOU’RE EVIL!”

Clearly, when it comes to the matter of faith, you have the mental capacity of a nine year old. In others parts of your life, you may very well be an intelligent person, but when it comes to religion, you have been brainwashed so severely that your mind is stuck in the undoubting phase of childhood.

I don’t know who “taught” you, but if they said you should respect irrationality than they must be very irrational themselves. I for one do not respect religious belief at all. Why? Look at your comment. Great example. Religion does not disserve to be respected. It should be fought. It’s evil. Its mind destroying. It’s destroyed your ability to comprehend and reason. You need help.

First, get an attitude adjustment. I was just very harsh on you... and you totally disserved it. If you would have came here with honest questions, you would have been treated differently. Change your attitude; try to open your mind at least a little bit. You have no evidence or reason to believe you are right, so accept that fact that you could be wrong.

Second, go to our articles section and read some things. Listen to some Rational Response Squad episodes, get a Dawkins book. If you enrich your mind enough, you may break free of your faith. We’ll be here. If you ever feel like maturing a bit, come back and ask more questions. But more importantly, ask yourself more questions: Why do you really believe?


AgnosticAtheist1
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Morals are an ingrained

Morals are an ingrained reaction in us to form a stable community. It's rather simply derived from natural selection. The branch of the species which best sticks to its close relatives produces more offspring as a group, and thus affects the gene pool. I am indeed, smart enough to figure out that lying or killing is wrong. In fact, at my school, it would seem that I am one of the few people who takes a firm moral stance on anything related to sex, which is VASTLY prohibited in the bible. Ironically enough, I am one of the few atheists. That certainly debunks your point to a high enough degree. Secondly, I never was a bad kid. My most disruptive activity was... well, nonexistant. I started reading slightly before the age of 2(easy books of course, not hard stuff), and stayed basically secluded to myself, reading, until approximately 5th grade. I have never been a disciplinary college, I take my studies seriously, I don't drink, i don't do drugs, I never lie and get very mad at people who lie to me.

You have yet to prove that morality comes from somewhere aside from a society. For example, from an entirely secular standpoint, one can come to the conclusion that murder and lying are wrong because they create societal instability.

Furthermore, some morals which come from religion are simly fallactious. There is a plethora of errors and invalidities in the bible, and it is a document incredibly intolerant of both women and gays. I'd hardly call that morals.

Respect is not necessarily a moral thing. Perhaps ethics. However, respect is not inherent, it is earned. Unless you can provide evidence to allay my suspicion that an idea is fallacious, it will remain such in my mind.

However, I will pay respect to your presence for the following reason:

This is one of the least ascerbic Christian(if I can make that assumption) posts I've seen in a long time. For example, I am not being told I'm going to hell, or that I make baby Jesus cry.

As to your last remarks, that was rather interesting. You implied that somebody who did not respect other ideas was immoral, and implied that everyone on this forum would be. I don't know if this was part of an elaborate trap to wait for someone to overreact and point to it aas evidence, or a coincidence, but I'll give benefit of the doubt as being simply ocincidental. You will find nothing but respect on this forum, so long as you initially come with it.

This post is far too arrogant, and makes great claims, for which it provides subpar evidence in the form of allegories and anecdotes, which are not uniersal, and have no place in a debate of logic.


FroMagnon
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Strange. I've always thought

Strange. I've always thought belief in an idea that is contrary to all logic, reason, and evidence is what is actually dumb.

There is numerous evidence of humans discovering a sense of morals (whether those morals be objective or subjective is an entirely different matter) before the Old Testament of the Bible was ever written. What about the Code of Hammarabi or the Justinian Code? Those are both examples of humans developing laws and rules that helped further along the species. I'd also like to add...since when is coloring on the walls immoral? That is an example of a behavior we do not prefer in our society...not at all akin to stealing and murder.

Anyway, most people are taught morals by other PEOPLE, not gods. We have been on earth for thousands of years. We have perfected a sense of what works and what does not. A society amock with murder, assault, stealing, and all that jazz could not survive...and in reality, it is all about survival of the species.

Religion and belief in gods is responsible for some of the most awful attrocities committed to mankind. The Crusades. The Inquisition. The Holocaust. 9/11. Do not equate belief in gods with moral righteousness. The two do not correlate.


Greg
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FTT Management wrote:POST

not believing in god is the most dumb thing you have ever heard? you must not have heard anything dumb before then in the past. When I say i have an imaginary friend(i dont really), you would probably call me childish or something along those lines. Is that not what god is? an imaginary friend? how is it dumb to be thoughtful on the world around you and not accept preposterous ideas such as your god. As was said before, morals are created in other ways. Not just by belief in god. The same morals can be stumbled upon without believing in god, but believing in god does have one bonus. you get your "holy wars", the my god is better than yours. all that rediculous stuff that kids do. Can you imagine, say you have a little brother, and a little sister. They both have their own imaginary friend, and they get in a fight about whos is better. Eventually the brother finds his daddy's gun and shoots his sister for saying hers is better. Not aware of the fact that it will kill her. What would you say? What a rediculous reason to kill someone, because you know that both their imaginary friends were made up in their head. That is your god and his wonderful crusades and holy wars. Morality, saying it doesnt come from a free thinking teen is such an absurd comment, where is your backing? Do you know every one of us? If what you said was true we all would be savage monsters out killing people because its funny. You say you will talk to us if we dont call you an idiot, stupid, or retarded. Yet wasnt the first thing you said to us calling us all stupid? I think that maybe you should think before you say things. What you say labels who you are. You say you are sure you arent closed minded. I think you are. You remind me of EVERY other christian. typical. Respect is an acquired thing that you definately have not acquired from anyone here. You will receive the minimum amount of respect from me. as much as a child with an imaginary friend gets. I hope you get better soon. I know how much mental illnesses can be a bother.


Thor
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I think responding via

I think responding via debate is a little to confrontational and excessive, not to mention unfair. You guys have a huge amount of knowledge on atheism, secular morals, and even the question of God. So don't argue... teach.

Remember, the job of the teacher is not easy. You have to connect with your audience, inspiring them to actively seek knowledge and understanding.

I suggest one of you trys to respond that way, and tell us how it goes.


Sapient
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Thor, how bout you show us

Thor, how bout you show us what you mean? Hopefully someone will invite her to this thread. In terms of confrontational keep in mind she started the discussion by stating:

"i think that not believing in God is one of the most dumb things i've ever heard of.

"i'm not here to be bashed on my opinion, or to be called an idiot"

So she starts by saying we're dumb, in a veil of hypocrisy. This is not akin to "teach me." It's akin to shut up you idiot, here is how I'm gonna tell you life is.


Derevirn
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I sent her a message on

I sent her a message on myspace yesterday but she hasn't read it yet...


Greg
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Greg, I must admit i was

Greg,
I must admit i was pleasantly suprised with your quick response and your interest in what i think. I appreciate not getting slammed for my beliefs, which is what tends to happen when i get into debates about things like religion or politics. I'm a Christian, raised in a christian family and i go to church every sunday with my family. I went to a private school for many years and have taken many classes in religion, christianity and bible. I just don't see how atheism works. I mean, i know what it is. If i'm correct, it's the belief that there is no God or higher power controlling it all right? We're just ashes to dust. What i don't understand is how you can live day to day? I can't live without the hope i have that one day, i'll live forever. Maybe it sounds dumb or farfetched to believe in a god that i've never seen. But it's a childlike faith that i follow. I don't believe in the theory of the big bang, or the soup that all life came from, i don't believe in evolution, at least not macro evolution. I odn't believe that there's mother nature. I believe that God created the earth. I know that there is radio carbon dating that says that many plants or rocks are millions of years old, so how can the earth be less than 10,000 years old according to creationists? i've thought a lot about this, and studied a bit, and i believe that God created the earth matured. He didn't plant seeds and left them grow for 40 years. When He created trees, He put in actual, old, mature, weathered, fruit producing trees. Just like i believe that Adam wasn't formed as a baby, he was made a full grown man. This is just one of the things i differ with when it comes to science vs. christianity.
That's the only point i have time to hit on right now, but it's a start and i look forward to the many conversations i hope we can have in the future. I do live in Germany, but i'm an american, and i don't sprechen at all!!! my friends all do, and i can get by, but i speak spanish much much better.
I'll talk to you soon
very respectfully
jen


Derevirn
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I'm sorry Jen, but you

I'm sorry Jen, but you surely have some double standards... you have no problem slamming our point of view yet you're too protective of yours. Well, if it's worth anything, it should withstand critical assessment. We would all believe in God's existence if there was sufficient evidence (we might not worship him though).

No Jen, we're not dust... We're humans, we don't need anything more to appreciate life. Indeed, I think religion degrades life and it's joys for the sake of an illusive afterlife. If you confront your inherent fear of death, you can go on with your life and appreciate it for what it really is, just a blink in the cosmic vastness. We aren't "made" to live forever and we all have to accept that and move on.

You see the problem with belief and faith. Big bang and evolution theory have tons of evidence supporting them (http://www.talkorigins.com/), you don't need faith to believe in them. You just have to take a look at the facts and draw a reasonable conclusion. There is absolutely no reason to place God in the explanation of our origins... it's a complication, not a solution.

You might want to check some of the books in this thread I made:

[url=http://www.freethinkingteens.com/node/2110]Recommended Science Books[/url]


Bashh
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Dear Jen, I am writing this

Dear Jen,

I am writing this in hopes that you understand atheism a little better, as well as understand why many atheists are abhorred by beliefs such as your own. I also ask that you read this in it's entirety and please know that this is not a personal attack.

I was raised catholic, and attended church fairly regularly. Somehow, my guess being that I have a very analytical mind and find no proof for God, I in my mind realized that the concept of god was not valuable. I'm 18, and only since I was about 15 or 16 did I accept my atheism, I did not want it to be true. I told myself I was christian, even though from a younger age still I felt there was no such thing as God. At age 15, I considered myself agnostic without even understanding the word. I just didn't want to care about the issue. I didn't believe in a god (an atheist) but I didn't even want the issue to be in my life at all, so I figured agnosticism was the correct intermediary position, that is the apathetic position. I found this to not be the case within the past year of researching atheism and finding out that it's much more widespread than I assumed it was, which of course made me happy.

In my search for the truth I've found many contradictory points in the christian bible, which I won't name for you as it appears to me you are not a literalist, though that is even more mind boggling to me. I've also come to grips with mortality, which was the hardest thing for me to do. People who have survived crashes will tell you that through their suffering though they wished to be dead they are glad to be alive, which brings me to the point of afterlife. An afterlife is contradictory, life is finite, and there is nothing after it. The concept of the afterlife propagates because people don't want to not exist. Heaven and hell are moot, because even if you are in hell, rotting for all eternity, you still exist, and you would much rather exist, than to not exist. Self preservation is a big deal with humans, and I won't lie to you, I love my life. However, knowing that I won't be around after it to just 'chill' makes me more willing to take care of my body and my world around me. Life is fleeting and even in this day, I still have trouble with the idea of not existing, and I don't want to die. I've layed awake at night as a child in tears trying to cope with the idea. It lead to a very shattered and scared childhood, no doubt. I feel however this is in part a problem my parents did not help; as I was told by my mother that the afterlife was real, and death was only a transition, and I was just so angry at her for not telling me the truth, I still wish she had the insight I did on the matter, and could have consoled me as a child, instead of just telling me a lie. Atheism is a hard thing to deal with as a child, I won't lie to you, a few years ago I would envy your ignorance, and wished I still had it.

This leads me into another whole point on humanity and society. Christians, including yourself, say that morals come from the bible. The first and foremost counter I have to offer is that the bible, including the old testemant since you cannot just focus on the new, is by far immoral and cruel. It promotes bigotry, rape, murder, so many just disturbing things. The bible is very intolerant and to an extent many christians are. The problem is that humans are not completely cruel by nature. Yes there are some very very disturbed individuals that are criminal by nature and very unstable. This nature of evil is not common by a long shot. Your general human being is a general all-around good person. Might be an asshole, but that does not mean immoral. What I am trying to allude to, is that morality comes from the social behaviors integral to human existance. Not many christians would stone a homosexual to death because of laying with another man as he does a woman is a sin. The majority of christians realize that murdering someone because of their beliefs is detestable. This however does not mean that christianity is a moral religion, it means that people decide what is moral for themselves based on what's best for them and their society. Sure many churches won't tell you that homosexuals are to be stoned, or that disobedient children are to be stoned as well, but they are, according to the bible. Warped morals do come from religions, and thanks to the ineptitude of the biblical authors, the religious right have a very firm stance in this country because the vast majority of idiocy they spew is directly from the holy book.

I appologize for writing so much, and I hope to have not offended you, but I wish you to look at your faith, read your bible without bias, take it for what it's worth and don't look for hidden meadings, you won't find any. You said yourself that it is a childish faith that binds you to your deity, well, stand up for yourself and toss away the security blanket. Take on your own responcibilities rather than attributing them to fate or god. Accept your acomplishments as your own, and pride yourself in being the best you can instead of owing thanks to a being that did not help you at all. Take your downfalls as your own, and seek to fix them instead of asking them to be fixed for you. It's a hard challenge, I know, but you must question your faith, as people have died so veinly for it, at least know what it is you believe in, and pride yourself in not being a sheep, regardless of what path you decide to take.


Sapient
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Bashh, that last post was

Bashh, that last post was very good. It gave me an idea, in the spirit of the new "Letter to a Christian Nation" from Sam Harris, we should ask other people to submit letters to Christians or other theists in the same style. I'll play with this idea, but maybe we could offer prizes too.


Bashh
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Sapient wrote:Bashh, that

[quote=Sapient]Bashh, that last post was very good. It gave me an idea, in the spirit of the new "Letter to a Christian Nation" from Sam Harris, we should ask other people to submit letters to Christians or other theists in the same style. I'll play with this idea, but maybe we could offer prizes too.

[/quote]

Thanks, and yeah that sounds like a cool idea, I'll have to re-word mine a bit to be general heh.


Sapient
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Bashh wrote:Sapient

[quote=Bashh][quote=Sapient]Bashh, that last post was very good. It gave me an idea, in the spirit of the new "Letter to a Christian Nation" from Sam Harris, we should ask other people to submit letters to Christians or other theists in the same style. I'll play with this idea, but maybe we could offer prizes too.

[/quote]

Thanks, and yeah that sounds like a cool idea, I'll have to re-word mine a bit to be general heh.[/quote]

Reword it and send it to me and we'll use yours as a sample.


Bashh
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Aight will do, look for it

Aight will do, look for it later tonight. I'll probably email or PM it to you.


girlanachronism
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The Salem Witch TrialsIn

The Salem Witch Trials
In Puritan New England the citizens used supernatural events to exlain many natural occurences such as deformed babies, lightning, and other strange phenomena. They usually blamed them on the devil. They also belived in witches, something now we scoff at. When lowly citizens desired others' land, they accused the more prestigious members of the community of being witches. The reason they did this was because if the accused were hung their estate was auctioned off and the accusers could buy their land.
When one was accused there were two paths they could take. They could confess they were a witch and have their name tainted forever in their small, isolated community, forever shunned, although "forgiven" by their peers. Or they could not confess (otherwise tell the truth) and be hung for consorting with the devil and signing his book.
22 people and a dog were killed because they were "witches".
Now we think, "What's so bad about saying you're a witch? Why not just confess and move on?" Saying a witch in this time is like saying now "I'm a child molester." And meaning it, sticking by it for the rest of your life, and living with it until you die, even though it's a fabrication.
Because these people believed in God, they followed the "morals" that he gave them. Their God gave them those guidlines to follow during their life. Who's to say your God is the right one and there's is wrong? You? If God is the creator of morality, may he have mercy on our souls, and his own.


Vamp
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Jen...goto all the sites

Jen...goto all the sites that Derevirn puts up, they have lots of evidence for Evolution, the origin of the universe, etc. I personally don't believe in a 'Higher Power' because of a few reasons, first, Where's the Evidence?! Do we have historical records that Jesus existed, was crucified, and came back to life? (While I do not doubt that a person who was crucified existed, I just don't believe they ever came back to life, there were probably MANY people crucified in ancient Roman times, and some people started the rumor, which became myth, which became legend, which became entwined in the Christian religion.) (I wanted to say "Jesus" instead of "person who was crucified" but my point would probably be missed by many.) Second, all the pure HATE in the Bible, if this is a "loving God" Why are there preachers who used to preach hate against blacks, who now preach hate againts gay peeps? There's like 2 or 3 passages in the bible that even relate to homosexuality (No, I don't know where.) So how do they get such raw emotion, raw hatred for us gay peeps from that? Last, again, There. Is. No. Real. Evidence. To. Support. ANY. Religion. I don't need a "God" to have morals, however, it is a good story to tell children to get them to behave (Jeez...kids are MEAN...) But their belief in it should be broken, just like Santa, the tooth fairy, and what not. I also don't need one to live day to day, I just LIVE, and if you ever feel bored, don't pray to god, for gods sake (Haha...), just go for a walk in a forest, or in a flower field, you won't be bored for long, just take a walk and admire nature. O.o Life is boring, but you have to make the best of it, and not by believing in something there is no rational evidence for...just make the best of what you have...don't believe in something blindly, hmm...Heeey...Think of the Salem witch trials, Like I saw above, did they have ANY evidence they were witches, other than a dozen or so girls saying people were? Nupe. Did they get hung if they didn't confess that they "walked with Satan, and signed his Black Book!"? Yup. (I just read the Crucible...) Did many people die from nothing but pure vengeance? Yup, I believe it was somewhere around 20 people that died. Some people refused to sign the paper, that would save their lives, just because the Bible said "Thou shalt not lie" Which would you choose, I wonder? Blind, unrelenting Faith? Or your life?


Amy
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Not believing in God, I

Not believing in God, I think, is much smarter than choosing to believe in something you have absolutely no proof in. At least we won't be disappointed when we die, but you will have lived your whole life for something that at the end, doesn't exsist. Plus, we can live our lives the way we choose to, not what is expected of us because of our religion. There shouldn't be rules to life.

"there's nothing wrong with believing in God, and in fact a lot of good can come from it. where do you think morals come from?"

I never said there isn't anything wrong with it, but I just don't need it and honestly I don't think anyone else does, people just think they do. I don't need religion to have morals, I decide for myself what is right and wrong for me. I don't need a book giving me rules of what I can't and can do, and basically controlling my life.

"respect is also a moral thing, so if you were left to figure that one out on your own, without anyone helping you, then i don't expect to receive it here."

I've never had anyone "help" me on how to respect someone...I just think of it this way: Treat others how they treat you. If someone disrespects me, then I have the right to do it back. If they treat me with respect, then I'd treat them the same way.


Doktormartini
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I don't need a "god" to tell

I don't need a "god" to tell me what's good or bad to do. I don't need a deity like Satan to scare me into doing good. I know what is good to do and what is not to do by myself. Helping otheres, not hurting anyone...etc are all things that I know I should do because it makes life better as a whole for everyone. My morals come from my heart.


LostShepherd
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the only reason i dont

the only reason i dont believe in any god is the fact that whatever culture a god may span , be it allah or god or some other fabrication is the reason being,

"WHY DID GOD CREATE A SYSTEM WHERE I HAVE TO TAKE ANOTHER LIFE FORCE TO EXIST"

for me this says it all.


twistedandy
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Well, there is nothing wrong

Well, there is nothing wrong with believing in God. I mean, I respect other people's beliefs. However, there's nothing wrong in not believing in God also.

About the "There are many good things that come out from believing in God". You know, I was a Catholic once (long ago). I was a strong God believer, prayed everyday, and went to confessions and things like that. I didn't miss a single day in mass. After all of that, I never got anything good out of it. Every single day, same crap happens. Nothing great happened to me. If God truly is the most powerful being/spirit and is everywhere, how come he never answered my prayers? How come he never helped me with my problems?

Then when I became an Atheist, I relied on myself instead of relying on God. And you know, I've changed a LOT. I fixed all of my problems, and I'm having a great life. You should think about other people's thoughts too, not just your own.


Kevinissmart
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i think that not believing

i think that not believing in God is one of the most dumb things i've ever heard of. there's nothing wrong with believing in God, [b]Who said there was?[/b]and in fact a lot of good can come from it. where do you think morals come from? [b]Instinct and values. I was born with many of my morals and I was raised with the rest.[/b]
where do you think it was deemed ok or not ok to commit murder or lie to your friends, or steal from someone else? you didn't come up with that on your own, it had to be taught to you at some point. [b]I have never had the urge to kill anyone. Just because you have, that makes you a better person? I'm confused. I tell the truth because it makes me feel good and it's the only way I'll have any friends. I don't steal because I don't suffer from kleptomania, that's a brain disorder. How can getting over kleptomania make you better than someone who never suffered from it?[/b] you don't have to be taught how to be bad, it's a natural thing. [b]I can't believe you actually think that all humans are born evil. My less than three year old niece has never killed anyone! How does being born evil and learning to be good make you better than a person born good and remaining that way?[/b] you color on the walls when you're 3, you rip up papers that your parents needed, they say "don't touch" and your finger reaches up and does it anyway. they don't have to teach you to ignore the word "no". that's the easy part. the hard part is resisting the urge to do the wrong thing. so, morality comes from somewhere...right and wrong come from somewhere, and apparently not from a free thinking teen. [b]Oh, so no one can think on their own? So humans just "made up" all morals? How can you be sure that these are the right morals if humans made them up, not God? In the bible, God is all for stoning people to death, I guess you must think that's ok. Personally, I think that makes you a bad person. If you are an atheist, you know that most morals are instict and so you follow them because you feel good about it not because you're afraid of being punished if you don't...To me, being good because it's right is better than being good because you're afraid or you want to "suck up". [/b]i'm not here to be bashed on my opinion, or to be called an idiot, or a christian kid who is closed minded, because i'm not. i'm really interested in what others think about what belief systems are out there, and i'd be interest to talk with you, if you'll talk with me without insulting me, or calling me stupid or an idiot. respect is also a moral thing, so if you were left to figure that one out on your own, without anyone helping you, then i don't expect to receive it here. [b]How can you spend a paragraph insulting us as if we're not even people, whom you also insulted, and then tell us that we have no right to insult you? You disrespected us so badly that I felt like bashing my head on the table when I read the part where you claim that we have no morals and no respect while you have respect. That's rude, uncalled for, but most of all immoral. If atheists were as immoral as you think they are, don't you think you'd hear of them doing bad stuff like starting wars? There have been a lot of Christian wars so before you preach to us about what's right and what's wrong, why don't you go and talk to your people.[/b]
curious
jen[/quote]


indie tits
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Hmm, well, no.

Let's start with a bang, shall we?

"where do you think it was deemed ok or not ok to commit murder or lie to your friends, or steal from someone else? you didn't come up with that on your own, it had to be taught to you at some point."

That chunk completely contradicts the sentence that follows it:

"you don't have to be taught how to be bad, it's a natural thing."

You come here, saying that you don't want to be bashed on, but you're bashing on everything I DON'T believe in.

You claim to be open-minded, but you think my system is DUMB.

I can't talk anymore about this. I don't think anyone needed to argue with you to prove your system of thought warped.


Bashh
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twistedandy wrote:Well,

[quote=twistedandy]Well, there is nothing wrong with believing in God. I mean, I respect other people's beliefs. However, there's nothing wrong in not believing in God also.

About the "There are many good things that come out from believing in God". You know, I was a Catholic once (long ago). I was a strong God believer, prayed everyday, and went to confessions and things like that. I didn't miss a single day in mass. After all of that, I never got anything good out of it. Every single day, same crap happens. Nothing great happened to me. If God truly is the most powerful being/spirit and is everywhere, how come he never answered my prayers? How come he never helped me with my problems?

Then when I became an Atheist, I relied on myself instead of relying on God. And you know, I've changed a LOT. I fixed all of my problems, and I'm having a great life. You should think about other people's thoughts too, not just your own.[/quote]

I was catholic once too. And I know this isn't atheist - atheist debate, but I find it very offensive that religion still exists. I don't think anything good comes out of it at all, and I think beliefs should be critized just as much as anything else.


Adam Burnfin
Joined: 2006-09-30
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I am not going to go into

I am not going to go into discussion on God currently, but you open the paragraph with an insult towards atheist, and then state you think people thould respect eachother, and that you shouldn't get
insulted Jen.


Amy
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Quote: Then when I became an

[quote]
Then when I became an Atheist, I relied on myself instead of relying on God. And you know, I've changed a LOT. I fixed all of my problems, and I'm having a great life. You should think about other people's thoughts too, not just your own.
[/quote]

Same here. I mean, I never really "relied" on "god", but I wasn't always an atheist...just somewhere in between i guess. Then when I finally did become one, I just felt so much better about things, and I'm actually a lot more happier now than I was before I became an atheist, because I learned how to work out issues myself instead of expecting some "god" to do it for me.


Kyzer
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You make me feel like i'm

You make me feel like i'm watching some infomercial....

so many optimistic things,,,agg...i can't take anymore...


public pervert
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on morals

morals extend from natural rights, not the belief in a God or in ultimate judgement.

John Locke (questionable spelling) said that the three basic rights of all humans are the right to life, liberty, and property. These seem to be programmed into our heads, teaching dogma and stories cannot instill what man already has programmed into his mind.


domakesaythink
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Although the atheist here

Although the atheist here are more then likely far more intelligent then I, i don't really see believing in a god as "idiotic". I mean, would you say it is dumb for someone to say that.....2+2=5? Well, some of you may think that but why can't it? To say that she is stupid for believing in god or us stupid for not believing in god is stupid, it's merely an opinion, neither have been proven, our faith(or lack of) is no more provable then hers, because when you use our logic against hers, they do not match, it is hardly worth trying to use a logical reasoning when trying to prove god isn't real, because in there world, the reasoning is completely different! So try and respect one before you disdain.

Oh and her whole comment on the morales, if you look at it, cavemen had to make friends and communicate in order to mate, survive, etc. It's merely something we have been passed down upon us. I don't think a bible has to be a standing for morale values because, well, who did they learn from, God? And if god taught us these good ways to live upon, then he is a omni benevolent right? Well then that contributes to the problem of evil doesn't it (and please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm not too bright lol) Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world? Just try to see a differenct perspective...sarah is it? You wouldn't believe in other religions and scoff at them, so can you see why we do to yours?


liberal agnostic
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I only read the first couple

I only read the first couple of sentences. By then, i was too angry to finish.

If this asshole needs a book to tell him murder is wrong, then he really seems to lack the brain capacities of a complete human being. Or, he's 'dumb.'


Scythian
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FTT Management wrote:POST

[quote=FTT Management]POST YOUR RESPONSES BELOW, AND FEEL FREE TO ALERT JEN TO ACTIVITY.

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Jennica
Date: Sep 22, 2006 1:28 PM

i think that not believing in God is one of the most dumb things i've ever heard of there's nothing wrong with believing in God, and in fact a lot of good can come from it. where do you think morals come from? where do you think it was deemed ok or not ok to commit murder or lie to your friends, or steal from someone else? you didn't come up with that on your own, it had to be taught to you at some point. you don't have to be taught how to be bad, it's a natural thing. you color on the walls when you're 3, you rip up papers that your parents needed, they say "don't touch" and your finger reaches up and does it anyway. they don't have to teach you to ignore the word "no". that's the easy part. the hard part is resisting the urge to do the wrong thing. so, morality comes from somewhere...right and wrong come from somewhere, and apparently not from a free thinking teen. i'm not here to be bashed on my opinion, or to be called an idiot, or a christian kid who is closed minded, because i'm not. i'm really interested in what others think about what belief systems are out there, and i'd be interest to talk with you, if you'll talk with me without insulting me, or calling me stupid or an idiot. respect is also a moral thing, so if you were left to figure that one out on your own, without anyone helping you, then i don't expect to receive it here.
curious
jen[/quote]
So, not believing in god sounds less intelligent than the scientologist's aliens in hawaii crater theory. The reason i don't believe in god is not because it is bad, i am simply to skeptical to entertain belief in it. Morality has never come from religion, in fact christianity doesn't give any good reason to abide by the ten commandments because jesus apperantly saves you from sin, so you can go to heaven even if you, lets say kill an abortion doctor, or rob a bank, or rape people..


Greg
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where do I think morals came

where do I think morals came from? :)
simply, jainism is as far back as i am aware of. but scientifically, morals are supposed to be (i forget, ha) something along the lines of thoughts/decisions/whatever to better yourself and chance of survival :)


Noor
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Morals are objective. All

Morals are objective. All people own their bodies and get to decide what they want to do with it. No one would want to be murdered, enslaved or stolen from (by definition they're involuntary) so anyone would label being murdered or stolen from as wrong.


HeliosOfTheSun
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noor wrote:Morals are

[quote=noor]Morals are objective. All people own their bodies and get to decide what they want to do with it. No one would want to be murdered, enslaved or stolen from (by definition they're involuntary) so anyone would label being murdered or stolen from as wrong.[/quote]

True. Stealing is a bad moral, depending on the circumstance. My example, Boston Tea Party. THe Founding Fathers stole and dumped it in the river later starting the Revoultion.


Noor
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KCahill wrote:True. Stealing

[quote=KCahill]True. Stealing is a bad moral, depending on the circumstance. My example, Boston Tea Party. THe Founding Fathers stole and dumped it in the river later starting the Revoultion.[/quote]

The British would label it as wrong because they owned it in the first place. But if the British had violated the Founding Fathers' rights they just lost their claim to the tea.