(Another topic from the Google cache.)

[b]SovietPants[/b]: Now, I realise that not everyone here is an Existentialist or, as I describe myself, a Nietzschean Naturalist, but this topic is here for a discussion concerning suicide and how we should handle such an occurrence both as individuals and as a society.

When one thinks of suicide, the most prevalent thought is that it is incredibly selfish and an act which should be shunned. To those who purport such a thought I must ask you why? Why should one be shunned for taking their destiny into their own hands and ending their existence as they see fit?

Of course there are a myriad of variables which surround every individual situation and to take a pro-suicide stance on all questions of such a nature is a rather ignorant thing to do as each case is unique. However, we can take a largely pro-suicide stance when we consider Free Will and existence itself.

When one considers existence and consciousness, from a secular standpoint, one can indeed see that after our lives there is nothing. We can then establish the fact that life is inherently meaningless. Taking that into consideration, why should oneenounce the act of ending one's own life? Could it not be that their conscience has deemed such an act necessary? To be honest, in the long run it doesn't matter if you are a peasant or a landlord, famous or unknown as our entire civilisation is damned to obscurity and destruction be it by external or internal forces.

Of course, a person would be ending a vast amount of possibilities, but is it not their decision as to whether or not they live? I myself am a survivor of suicide. To be sure, I am here only on the mere chance that my sister walk in on me bleeding myself dry. As I do indeed know what true misery is, as I am familiar with the torture of self-mistrust, of desolation and of isolation, I am coming from the experience of the life of a rather Stoic individual who has had a relatively depressing existence. Therefore, any claims of callousness or ignorance are not really valid.

What are your thoughts on this issue?

[b]john[/b]: [quote]When one considers existence and consciousness, from a secular standpoint, one can indeed see that after our lives there is nothing. We can then establish the fact that life is inherently meaningless. Taking that into consideration, why should one denounce the act of ending one's own life? Could it not be that their conscience has deemed such an act necessary?[/quote]
Exactly! From a secular point of view, life and existence have no purpose and are meaningless. Therefore, it can be assumed that to someone who does not believe in the existence of divinity, suicide is a completely justified means of ending your own existence.

[quote]To be honest, in the long run it doesn't matter if you are a peasant or a landlord, famous or unknown as our entire civilisation is damned to obscurity and destruction be it by external or internal forces.[/quote]

I, being someone who believes in God, would agree with you that ultimately it does not matter what you become. However, I believe that life should not be lived in a way that focuses on our own personal advancement. Rather, we should live in a manner that fulfills God's predetermined purpose for individuals as well as the whole of humanity. We should glorify God, no matter what we become. Suicide is not glorifying to God; therefore, suicide is not justified.

[quote]I myself am a survivor of suicide. To be sure, I am here only on the mere chance that my sister walk in on me bleeding myself dry. As I do indeed know what true misery is, as I am familiar with the torture of self-mistrust, of desolation and of isolation, I am coming from the experience of the life of a rather Stoic individual who has had a relatively depressing existence.[/quote]

It is truly wonderful that you survived suicide. Human life is the most valuable part of God's creation. I realize that you may not see it this way, but I believe that your sister walking in on you was not merely chance, but rather an act of God. God has some other intended purpose for your life.

[b]SovietPants[/b]: [quote]I, being someone who believes in God, would agree with you that ultimately it does not matter what you become. However, I believe that life should not be lived in a way that focuses on our own personal advancement. Rather, we should live in a manner that fulfills God's predetermined purpose for individuals as well as the whole of humanity. We should glorify God, no matter what we become. Suicide is not glorifying to God; therefore, suicide is not justified.[/quote]
As you do believe in God, should it not be that you would be concerned as to how one leads their life? Surely, there must be some significance as to how a person leads their life if God is to judge us all in the end.
What if your idea that suicide is counter to god's intention, then what of the life of Christ? He came into this world knowing of his fate and let it happen anyway, is that not a form of suicide?
[quote]It is truly wonderful that you survived suicide. Human life is the most valuable part of God's creation. I realize that you may not see it this way, but I believe that your sister walking in on you was not merely chance, but rather an act of God. God has some other intended purpose for your life.[/quote]
I don't completely rule out that possibility either, of a God or of some significance being put to my survival, but I'm of the opinion that it was only be chance and that most of life is as such. Although, I could always be wrong.

[b]john[/b]: [quote]As you do believe in God, should it not be that you would be concerned as to how one leads their life? Surely, there must be some significance as to how a person leads their life if God is to judge us all in the end.[/quote]
As shown in the quote below, I do believe that we should be concerned with how we lead our lives.
[quote]Rather, we should live in a manner that fulfills God's predetermined purpose for individuals as well as the whole of humanity. We should glorify God, no matter what we become.[/quote]
When I said that it ultimately didn't matter what you become in life, I was referring to your statement involving the servant and the landowner. In other words, I meant more of what you become in terms of a career.
[quote]What if your idea that suicide is counter to god's intention, then what of the life of Christ? He came into this world knowing of his fate and let it happen anyway, is that not a form of suicide?[/quote]
Good question.

No, foreknowledge is not suicide. Christ gave up his life for the lives of others. Suicide refers to the taking of one's own life. Jesus did not take his own life but rather gave it as a sacrificial act.

If I jumped between a bullet (knowing that death was a likelihood) that was fired at my mother, and my mother, and that bullet then struck me in the heart, killing me; did I commit suicide? No, I don't think so.

[b]SovietPants[/b] [quote]When I said that it ultimately didn't matter what you become in life, I was referring to your statement involving the servant and the landowner. In other words, I meant more of what you become in terms of a career.[/quote]
There are several verses in the Bible that I know of that speak of damnation for the rich.
"23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Mathew 19:23-24
2All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Would that then not suggest that only communists would enter the kingdom of heaven?
[quote]Good question.

No, foreknowledge is not suicide. Christ gave up his life for the lives of others. Suicide refers to the taking of one's own life. Jesus did not take his own life but rather gave it as a sacrificial act.
If I jumped between a bullet (knowing that death was a likelihood) that was fired at my mother, and my mother, and that bullet then struck me in the heart, killing me; did I commit suicide? No, I don't think so.[/quote]
You did, however, do something which would end your life and as such knowingly ended it. Additionally, it doesn't really matter what you think it is or is not, but what God thinks it is or is not, no? And how are you to be sure that God would agree with you?

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(End of what I could regain from the cache.)