You know I'm half inclined to agree with you on this one.

Certainly churches need money to operate. On this point I see no problem with them asking for donations. Since they are, after all the only source of imcome they have.

otoh, I dont think Churches should demand donations. Or make people feel they have to give. People should give as a way of giving thanks to God, not because they feel they must. In fact thats what the verses you cited would suggest.

Just my $.02 take it as you will.

your $0.02 has been taken and greatly appreciated

[quote]In fact thats what the verses you cited would suggest.
[/quote]

i did notice that thoes verses would suggest that, unfortunatly if the verse is delivered to the people along with a message about "titheing is the way to unlocking the glory of heaven" then the message is being twisted for financial benifit, and im sure the church i was refering to are not the only one who do it.

frederic, I feel like it may be useful for me to speak on this, since my church has a very large annual budget...It's in the multi-millions, in fact.

Why? My church has a television ministry. This is [i]very[/i] expensive to run, since it's both local and nationwide, and we have to keep updating our hardware (cameras, lenses, other broadcasting equipment) in order to keep it running. And why shouldn't we? My church has the oldest church television ministry in the world.

Why? Because we fund missions around the world. We not only supply missionaries with hundreds of thousands of dollars each year in order to operate, but we send teams to places in South America, Africa, and other impoverished places to help people as well as spread the love of Christ. How much money do you think it costs to fly twelve to fifteen people alone, not even considering what they have to do when they get there? It's very hasty for you to ask why pastors have so much money when people are starving, since that's part of what my church tries to change.

Why? Because we have a large youth ministry that I'm active in. Going on youth trips costs money. You might like to know that our youth camp alone costs about $30,000 a year to finance when you factor in the transportation costs, housing, food, booking a pastor and a band, etc.

None of the things I've just mentioned go into the pastor's pockets. Far from it. I'm on the Youth Leadership Council and part of my duty is to help my youth pastor work out the budget. When he is stressed about money, it's not because he can't buy a new iPod; it's because he's worried that he won't be able to fund all of the things he wants to do this year for the youth. He is imaginative and has a great vision for where he wants to take the group, but all of them require money.

If you think that merely because someone's a pastor, they shouldn't get a salary that is very high, then you should turn that around on yourself and see how you like it. They need money to pay their bills just like you do. None of the pastors I know are what I'd call "well-off." They're certainly not in debt or struggling to pay their heating and car payments, but they're not off buying unnecessary things because they have cash flowing out of their pockets.

I'm sorry you have such a misguided view of how churches work.

Chocolate chip, please.

If you don't have that, though, peanut butter is fine.

[quote=AgnosticAtheist1]I think they'd prefer vaccines. Or food. Or mosquito nets. Just a thought.[/quote]

And my church has provided all of that. As well as a home for children in Mexico who's parents are in prison.

In any case P-Dunn's point is this: Although churches take in a lot of income, usually it ends up going to keep the church running or to help other people. That's not to say their arent Pasters who line their pockets with church funds, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

sorry i havent responded in a while, uni homework and partying with mates has minimized my internet useage :P
good times........good times.....

neways, now back to the imporntant issues

[quote]1. Not all churches are all that rich. Most pastors I've met don't drive Harleys.[/quote]

ok, yer sorry bout that, i do agree with ya. i do realize that many pasters/priests r scraping rock bottem, their genraly the good hardworking ones who devote their lives to the community. my issue is with the ones who have the expensive cars, suits and pay tv (regardless of wether its christian pay tv or not). and unfortunatly their r shockingly a large amount of the "matirialistic" ones

[quote]2. Depending on where the suit comes from and the size of the person who wears them, they are really not anymore expensive then most other types of clothing. Last I checked, a pair of Levi's can be as high as 80 dollars.[/quote]

well i dont even agree with other people in society paying that much for any peice of clothing. I find it disgrasful that anyone can pay that much for clothes when its being made by some poor kid in china who is being overworked and will probably be killed when he can no longer work, and people r supporting thoes corperations wich do that by paying for overpriced crap. i myself will rarely pay more then $20 for a peice of clothing, including quite nice no-brand jeans, and the most expencive peice of clothing i own is a $35 ramones shirt..... and i really tossed and turned over wether i wanted to pay that much 4 a shirt
so it is quite easy to have plenty of clothes which dont really cost too much, so y is their a need for suits????

[quote]4. Church's do have budgets and if you want a copy of their budget, go ask for it.[/quote]

i did, apparently they dont have one currently avalible
hmmmm

[quote]6. Even if the pastor has a nice truck or bike, so what? Is he allowed to have a few nice things?[/quote]

arnt the starving kids in africa, or the homless kids in south america, or the abused kids right round the world allowed to have a few nice things?? sure they r allowed it, sometimes, but do they get it....... no, and will many of them ever have a chance to get nething nice???? .......... no

[quote]7. There is more to being a pastor then Sunday service. Many hours of work go into one sermon and many pastors do help out members of their church with emotional issues, marriage issues, and money issues. On top of that, many of them have other ministries they work for (often times for free).[/quote]

i have noticed from a few past experence's that many times the church hasnt been too great at helping members pof church.
in my mums church their was a point where a drug addict was attending. he was looking prity desperate and i talked to him once and he was saying that he had nothing to loose and god was his last chance. "wow" i thought, "i really hope the pasters help this bloke out, hes probably not gonna last long with his current lifestyle". he was told by the church to not come back about a week later. he was turned away from one of his last chances at life. and the poor bastard wasnt rougy in church and diddnt disrupt the sermon ever, in fact he was quieter then many of the other people their. the only thing i saw wich they would have turned him away 4 was the fact that he was a bum, dressed like a bum and smelt like a bum. he was bad 4 the churches image.
another instance of the church not being to helpfull was a lil bit more close to home. my grandma and her husband were both skizo's (sorry cant spell the whole word). they frequently attended a church near their home, and gave most their pention to this church. about 3 years ago we found out that my grandma was being physacaly abused quite frequently and we pulled her out of her home and she came to live with my mum. when we asked the church if they ever noticed anything they sayed that they had. they new my grandma's husband was a violent man, especialy towards my grandma. when we asked y they diddnt do anything about it the responded with "it was too dangerous"........ so that pastor was willing to take the money everyweek, and allow an old lady to get bashed and was too scared to stick his kneck out to help someone in need.

i do have many other storys like this but im sure thoes 2 will do, 2 much 4 me to type and 2 much 4 u to read

i may sound like someone with a chip on the shoulder from a few bad experences.... but if its happening in a few churches its worht looking ito many churches world wide to see if they r acualy doing an efficient job

[quote]Now, I do agree that some pastors (like those who have 3 or 4 nice cars or home's that are worth hundred's of thousands of dollars) that they are taking advantage of those at their church. A good pastor though will work 60 hours of more a week and even be willing to drive an hour or more to see you in the hospital. [/quote]

but how many are like that??

[quote]And a church should be giving a large amount of it's income (far more then 10%) to helping the community around it. In addition, a Christian should help his community though either time or money. In fact, CS Lewis said that a Christian should be so giving, that he or she should have to put themselves though some stress in order to be that way. [/quote]

as should the pastors, plus some

[quote]And what is this church's budget? I've seen church collect up to 100,000 dollars and yet over half of that goes to community service projects. A church makes 980,000 dollars, well that's nice and what are they spending money on? [/quote]

like i say, idk, their not making their budget avalible

[quote]You do love to report impartial facts huh?[/quote]

now now, lets not be throwing comments at wot i do or do not luv to do, i wont do that to you cause its just like a "nana nana naaa naa" thing and is comonly used in primery school arguments, this is about the churches spending habits, not me

[quote]Church's I've been to do have a budget available of their income and spending habits every year. You'd also be surprised how much bills can cost.[/quote]

it is good when churches relise their budget, and its even better when the budget is evaluated by an un-biased party to establish what is and isnt nessisary to be spending

and yes i do realize bills can cost alot of money, but their r a few things a church can go without:
im sure acoustic drum kits r still comenly used throughout the world, so y own an electric one?
quite a few bands have made it big with 4 string bass' , so y pay that few extra hundred dollars 4 a five string bass
wow they have alot of airconditioners, it may be a large building but 12 large aircons r a lil over kill, and apparently their not good enough, so their gonna install 12 new ones, to replace the already working ones...... and great time of the year to do it too, we're just hitting winter and its bloody cold.......honestly its midday, in qld (not the coolest state in australia) and im whearing slippers!!! lolz
ect.... (many other worthless spendings wich im too slack to mention cause i gotta go visit a mate soon)

you also mentioned banquites in the churches spending. if you find it absolutly nessisary to feed the church congrigation insted of the starving homless people, then im sure 200 sausages dont really cost that much
and u mentioned missionarys, in many storys of missionarys they only go over their to teach the word of god, and they stay with familys who only have some gloopy shit to eat, and the missionarys eat their gloopy shit which the africans dont really have much of. Also y do the missionarys feel the need to distroy one system of faith to establish their own. instead of giving them a new god to belive in y dont the missionarys spend their time teaching them how to grow their own food, and look after the eco system around them to prevent over hunting. im sure the natives would be happyer to live, and belive in their own gods, then to starve to death beliving in the christian god.

have a lovely day
and i hope the weather is plesent whereever your at, cause our weather is bloody rotten
zac

[quote=fredric sedric] Also y do the missionarys feel the need to distroy one system of faith to establish their own. instead of giving them a new god to belive in y dont the missionarys spend their time teaching them how to grow their own food, and look after the eco system around them to prevent over hunting. im sure the natives would be happyer to live, and belive in their own gods, then to starve to death beliving in the christian god. [/quote]

The real question is: Why cant they do both?

Although sometimes, depending on where you're going, it can be difficult to do real mission work because of legal or cultural barriors. For example the Chinese government doesnt allow forgin missionaries. One of my friends who wanted to go as a missionary went as a student studying abroad. Although he brought several people to God, he couldnt do any real mission work because the government would have deported him(or worse).

[quote=fredric sedric]many missionarys dont really think of much other then "bringing people to god". [/quote]

Your quite wrong. Most missionaries do at least try to provide humanatarian aid. Although sometimes it's simply not possible(such as in China).

[quote]doesnt it ever occer to them that the people they are bringing to god should be encouraged to follow their traditional belifs[/quote]

Why? Bear in mind that if Christianity is true, then the eternal souls of these people are in the balance.

[quote]and i know u may say "if the people come to god then they were obviously forfilled in some way", but think of it this way, your starving, your shaman has been promising that if u sacrifice an animal and pat your belly and rub your head (sorry couldnt help myself :P) the rain will come and u will get a good crop. suddenly a heap of people rock up from a developed country and feed u and your family, then tell you about "god". of course ur going to start following that god
unfortunatly wot u dont know is that its not the shamans fault for not supplying the rain for the seasons crop, its acualy thoes people who came and fed u. they raped the environment so your part of the world starts drying up. it turns out your god is as good as theirs.[/quote]

I'm not sure what your point here is. Maybe it would help if you learned type(is English your second language?).

Its really nobody's fault that they didnt have a good crop. Its simply bad circumstances. If we can help why shouldnt we?

[quote]while these missionarys r taking advantage of the fact that they can bribe people into their religion with food, a culture is dying, a religion is becoming extinct, and a way of life is almost gone.

[quote]y on earth cant missionarys see that they should be over their helping not just the people to survive..... but also their culture [/quote]

I dont think most missionaries are out to destroy their whole culture. I also dont see why be Christian means they cant continue to live the way they have before. The only thing that would have to change is their religious practices. Other than that their culture is probably closer to the one the Bible was written in.

[quote=fredric sedric][quote]The real question is: Why cant they do both?

Although sometimes, depending on where you're going, it can be difficult to do real mission work because of legal or cultural barriors. For example the Chinese government doesnt allow forgin missionaries. One of my friends who wanted to go as a missionary went as a student studying abroad. Although he brought several people to God, he couldnt do any real mission work because the government would have deported him(or worse).[/quote]

many missionarys dont really think of much other then "bringing people to god". doesnt it ever occer to them that the people they are bringing to god should be encouraged to follow their traditional belifs

and i know u may say "if the people come to god then they were obviously forfilled in some way", but think of it this way, your starving, your shaman has been promising that if u sacrifice an animal and pat your belly and rub your head (sorry couldnt help myself :P) the rain will come and u will get a good crop. suddenly a heap of people rock up from a developed country and feed u and your family, then tell you about "god". of course ur going to start following that god
unfortunatly wot u dont know is that its not the shamans fault for not supplying the rain for the seasons crop, its acualy thoes people who came and fed u. they raped the environment so your part of the world starts drying up. it turns out your god is as good as theirs.

while these missionarys r taking advantage of the fact that they can bribe people into their religion with food, a culture is dying, a religion is becoming extinct, and a way of life is almost gone.

y on earth cant missionarys see that they should be over their helping not just the people to survive..... but also their culture [/quote]

Thank you! I couldn't possibly agree with you more! That's exactly what happened when the first European christians came to North America and encountered the Native Americans and now their culture and practices are dead with the exception of the Natives that live on reservations (which is a bullshit term) that still practice.

I'm so tired of christians acting like they know and are right about everything! Yes... Fine... I get it you're christian so you think christianity and the bible are the keys to all knowledge but what if its not, what if when you die you realize that everything you wasted your time believing in and following (like a sheep awaiting its day to be sheered to warm the back of the farmer and be slaughtered to feed his family) is all a bunch of bullshit!?