GOD. Perfect, ultimately superior being?
Offline I believe, though I may be mistaken, that Nietzsche made this original point (after I make the point, I will continue on will more). (I copied and pasted this from one of my comments on www.rationalresponders.com ).
If...
1-God is all loving
2-God is all powerful
3-God is all knowing... how does humanity continue to suffer, or have suffered in the first place, being the God supposedly created us, and existed eternally before (and after) us. Being that we suffer, it is impossible that God is all these three, because if God were all powerful and all knowing, he simply would not love us. Also, if he was all loving and all knowing, he is simply weak, and can do nothing about our suffering. And last (but I certainly do not believe least), if God knows, and can stop out suffering, he simply doesn't love of care for us. I do not believe that the 'perfect' (ideal?) father would let one's children suffer. Christians attempt to negate this statement with the response that God gives us many chances, and it is out choice to decide, but when you ask what form these chances come in, Christians point out that these come in many forms, but none of them are direct. If God wanted you to be happy, we would directly allow you the option of ultimate salvation, without 'beating around the bush' so to speak. Even if there is a other-wordly being that created us, and in a form, it is superior, I would still prefer not to idolize a being that sends me to a pit of eternal suffering and damnation. God cannot be perfect, for we suffer, and he does nothing, or little compared to what he could, to stop it.
Actually this was first formulated by Epicurus, at least in one form..
[b] The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?[/b]
I love this because it is so succinct...
God is all loving, all powerful, and all knowing. It's not God's will that humanity suffers. We are in an imperfect world by our own choosing since the Fall, and these are the consequences in a world filled with sin. I guess you could say that God has "tough love" and when you choose not to submit to Him there ARE consequences. No where in the Bible does it say that life will be easy, or fair for that matter. But life is a test and God gives us many challenges, it's what you do in life that matters.
[quote=Adam Burnfin]I believe, though I may be mistaken, that Nietzsche made this original point (after I make the point, I will continue on will more). (I copied and pasted this from one of my comments on www.rationresponders.com ).
If...
1-God is all loving
2-God is all powerful
3-God is all knowing... how does humanity continue to suffer, or have suffered in the first place, being the God supposedly created us, and existed eternally before (and after) us. Being that we suffer, it is impossible that God is all these three, because if God were all powerful and all knowing, he simply would not love us. Also, if he was all loving and all knowing, he is simply weak, and can do nothing about our suffering. And last (but I certainly do not believe least), if God knows, and can stop out suffering, he simply doesn't love of care for us. I do not believe that the 'perfect' (ideal?) father would let one's children suffer. Christians attempt to negate this statement with the response that God gives us many chances, and it is out choice to decide, but when you ask what form these chances come in, Christians point out that these come in many forms, but none of them are direct. If God wanted you to be happy, we would directly allow you the option of ultimate salvation, without 'beating around the bush' so to speak. Even if there is a other-wordly being that created us, and in a form, it is superior, I would still prefer not to idolize a being that sends me to a pit of eternal suffering and damnation. God cannot be perfect, for we suffer, and he does nothing, or little compared to what he could, to stop it.[/quote]
perfect: unflawed in all aspects; the best at everything
that's a paradox in itself:
can god create a square circle?
if yes, then the idea of god is illogical
if no, then there's something he can't do
can god create a rock so large that he himself can't lift it?
if yes, then there's something he can't do (lift the rock)
if no, there's something he can't do (create a rock he can't lift)
conclusion: there is no such thing as perfection
[b]Can God create a rock He can't lift?
by Rabbi Eyal Ravnoy
First answer this question: Can a xlqp make a btzl that he can’t lift? You probably think I lost my mind. Let me explain.
If G-d is All-Powerful, then He obviously can’t create this rock. Does this make Him not All-Powerful? Is G-d crippled by the fact that He can't cripple Himself? No.
Can G-d sprain His ankles? If He can't, doesn't that fact limit Him? Of course not. G-d is Perfection--and to ask if Perfection can make itself anything less than perfect simply makes no sense.
Is G-d crippled by the fact that He can't cripple Himself? No.
"But," you may persist, "If He can't do it, does that make Him less perfect?" Well, in the Jewish tradition of answering a question with another question, can G-d make a square circle? What in G-d's name is a square circle? The question is meaningless. Can G-d make meaningless things? No! And because He cannot, does that diminish from His Perfection? No!
In short, the answer to your question is simply "No." G-d cannot do anything that would make Him imperfect.
That is why He is G-d. [/b]
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=419&o=237
Hopefully this answers your question.
-Adam
why do you put a dash through "God"?
[quote][b]If G-d is All-Powerful, then He obviously can’t create this rock.[/b] Does this make Him not All-Powerful? Is G-d crippled by the fact that He can't cripple Himself? No.[/quote]if god can't create the rock, his abilities are limited. that's a contradiction to him being perfect.
can you please substantiate why you answer "no" at the end? why isn't god crippled by the fact that his abilities are limited?
[quote]"But," you may persist, "If He can't do it, does that make Him less perfect?" Well, in the Jewish tradition of answering a question with another question, can G-d make a square circle? What in G-d's name is a square circle? The question is meaningless. Can G-d make meaningless things? No! And because He cannot, does that diminish from His Perfection? No![/quote]a square circle is a shape which has the property of being both a square, and a circle.
logically, that is impossible. but they say that nothing is impossible to god.
if nothing is impossible to god, he can make a square circle; which is a connundrum. therefore, god doesn't exist.
if god can't make a square circle, then there's something he cannot do; therefore god is not perfect.
you're saying that not being able to create a square circle does not diminish god's perfection. how so? it's something he cannot do; which contradicts the defenition of perfect.
[quote]In short, the answer to your question is simply "No." G-d cannot do anything that would make Him imperfect.[/quote]that means his abilities are limited; thus, he is not perfect anyway.
perfection=no more needed
humans=more
more=boredom
boredom=imperfection
god was bored made humans........what the?
[quote=Apokalipse]perfect: unflawed in all aspects; the best at everything
that's a paradox in itself:
can god create a square circle?
if yes, then the idea of god is illogical
if no, then there's something he can't do
can god create a rock so large that he himself can't lift it?
if yes, then there's something he can't do (lift the rock)
if no, there's something he can't do (create a rock he can't lift)
conclusion: there is no such thing as perfection
[/quote]
I use the second one sometimes from time to time, I got it from the brother who is in college. I was just wondering which book/auther you got it from.
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"God is all loving, all powerful, and all knowing. It's not God's will that humanity suffers. We are in an imperfect world by our own choosing since the Fall, and these are the consequences in a world filled with sin. I guess you could say that God has "tough love" and when you choose not to submit to Him there ARE consequences. No where in the Bible does it say that life will be easy, or fair for that matter. But life is a test and God gives us many challenges, it's what you do in life that matters."
What the hell. I mean honestly. you refute yourself by stating the god is all loving al knowing and all powerful but allows us to suffer. You may no negating statement or counter statement to my prior statement, you have not answered my question. There is no logical answer to my question, for a father would not stand by and watch his son get raped by a man 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 1/10000000th his strength. Tough love? Tough love is selfish love. Love is not commensalism, or mutualism, or any of these. Love is purely out of desire for attaining something purely selfish. For instance, you "love your girlfriend, because she is good to YOU she fucks YOU, she is loyal to YOU. You don't love your girlfriend because she fucks other men. Also in that sense, god cannot be perfect, because love is purely selfish. Argue with me on that one if you want, I want you to, I'd love to. <<< That 'love' is derived from purely selfish reason, and do not tell me it is not 'true 'love',
for you are not I, and only I decide what I love. You can love a concept as much as a being, for everything we percieve is a concept. Read up on the 18th century scottish philosopher David Hume on wikipedia.org, he is a genius.
Heh, I love the point you make, but don't say selfishness, say rational self-interest. It A) makes people more likely to agree and B) fits better with certain ideas, namely, micro economics and some fields of psychology.
Adam I did enjoy your 'Love is not commensalism..' speal. I'm stealing it.
I think what he is trying to say is this:
God is truth.
To ask if God can adjust himself to be untrue, he would not be God. The concept of "perfect" is based on objective truth. Therefor, asking Pure Truth to lie is futile.
[quote=AgnosticAtheist1]Heh, I love the point you make, but don't say selfishness, say rational self-interest. It A) makes people more likely to agree and B) fits better with certain ideas, namely, micro economics and some fields of psychology.[/quote]
Not does it matter to me what one says I should call it, but what it is in its simplist form. Selfishness.
It seems you are to imply that selfishness is a bad thing? It is not. The instances which it is seemingly preferable are refered to as rational self- interest.
oh don't worry, I know the two terms enough not to confuse them. It's just A) the misrepresentation of selfishness and B) the confusion of using both to mean the same thing make it far better to refer to rational self-interest as doing actions that are more conducive to your satisfaction than dissatisfaction(which I would argue are all actions), and to refer to selfishness as an action which benefits you at the cost of others
Any action you take to elevate yourself necessarily is costing others. You might take the time to feed yourself, but you are costing others because you could spend that same time out helping a neighbor or working.
Back on topic though.
God cannot be perfect if he is the Christian or Muslim or any god other than the deist god...and it probably includes the deist god as well. But deists don't try to say that god is perfect or anything, so I guess it doesn't contradict deism.
It's because god acts.
Action implies unsatisfied want, want implies lack, and lack implies imperfection.
So, if God created the universe, it's because he wanted to. He lacked a universe and he wanted one, which is why he created one, but that also demonstrates imperfection. If god was perfect he would have had no lack or want of a universe, and the universe would not have been created.
God, unless he is completely inactive and does absolutely nothing, cannot possibly be perfect.