Greed
Posted on: Mon, 2006-10-02 19:54
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Greed
My friend Adam and I have been discussing this topic for a while, we have come to the conclusion that greed is the base of everything, including friendship. Anything done, even out of empathy, would be done to fulfill some sort of greedy thought. Say charity. would it not be done to fulfill the want for that "good feeling"? what are your guy's thoughts on it.
People do their best work when their motivation is their own benefit. I think there are things that we do that aren't based on greed but our efforts will always be more dynamic when we are fighting for ourselves. Capitalism is a good example of the whole thing.
Hmm, i don't know much on this subject, but from reading it, i'm going to have to agree with you both. But i'll try to think up something to stir minds...
....or to make a complete fool out of myself ;)
[quote=Kyzer]Hmm, i don't know much on this subject, but from reading it, i'm going to have to agree with you both. But i'll try to think up something to stir minds...
....or to make a complete fool out of myself ;)[/quote]
Kyzer, I really don't want to sound like a dick, but do you have any oppinions? or do you just prefer to agree with everyone? (haha)
:My stance on this topic (at least currently) is that everything you do is either motivated by a longing to fulfill self-desire. I believe this is an innate thing. Instincts are something we cannot rise above, no matter how hard we try, even if we do make our instincts appear to not exist, because our instincts set the guidelines for our actions/thoughts, our thoughts do not set the guidelines for our instincts. As we learned in my Biology class (which happens to be a college level biology class, untill I drop it because it is insanely overwhelming for myself) all actions underwent by animals are behaviors intended to benefit (in one way or another, being greed or mutualism, which still benefits the self) their species. There are very few occurances in which animals (mainly mammals) do things apparently free of greed. This is to protect their kin, and doing this benefits the species by increasing possibility of successful procreation. This almost never happens outside of a close family of animals. IF, by slight chance, that this action actually does lack greed, then it is one of the, if not the only action that acts as a counter-example that the conjecture 'everything that we do is based from a desire to fulfill selfish desires'. I do not believe it is an extremely effective counter-example though, because genetics are the key issue here, and genetics are what would make you act based on the self. Genetics are also what have 'proggrammed' you to act out in a way to defend your kin. I currently believe that everything one does can and does have selfish reasoning behind it, and that that, consciously, or subconsciously, is the ultimate reasoning behind their actions.
I think that MOST* human actions are for incentives. These incentives may be social or economic or even moral (as you mention, charity is often done for the warm&fuzzies that it produces).
*I think that a good portion of our actions aren't thought out, and are driven by habit more than incentive.
At least personally, I don't take an inventory of my actions to see how they benefit me, I just act as I have learned to. So, when I hold the door open for someone, I may not be acting with a self-interest but just giving a Pavlovian response to what I'm used to.
Mis .2 centavos///
[quote=Stephen]I think that MOST* human actions are for incentives. These incentives may be social or economic or even moral (as you mention, charity is often done for the warm&fuzzies that it produces).
*I think that a good portion of our actions aren't thought out, and are driven by habit more than incentive.
At least personally, I don't take an inventory of my actions to see how they benefit me, I just act as I have learned to. So, when I hold the door open for someone, I may not be acting with a self-interest but just giving a Pavlovian response to what I'm used to.
Mis .2 centavos///[/quote]
That is a posiblity, but I believe that doing that (holding the door open), one would be satisfying the moral correctness they have been informed to be so since birth.
True, And intially it might have been for some sort of social incentive ("oh look, he's so polite") but eventually it becomes an ingrained ritual, that is done naturally...
Either way, I agree with y'alls postion.
[quote=Adam Burnfin][quote=Kyzer]Hmm, i don't know much on this subject, but from reading it, i'm going to have to agree with you both. But i'll try to think up something to stir minds...
....or to make a complete fool out of myself ;)[/quote]
Kyzer, I really don't want to sound like a dick, but do you have any oppinions? or do you just prefer to agree with everyone? (haha)
[/quote]
I don't agree on your view of free will Adam ;)
[quote=Kyzer][quote=Adam Burnfin][quote=Kyzer]Hmm, i don't know much on this subject, but from reading it, i'm going to have to agree with you both. But i'll try to think up something to stir minds...
....or to make a complete fool out of myself ;)[/quote]
Kyzer, I really don't want to sound like a dick, but do you have any oppinions? or do you just prefer to agree with everyone? (haha)
[/quote]
I don't agree on your view of free will Adam ;)
[/quote]
Of course you don't, it's mine. lol
Well, sure.. But "greed," though it's an accurate word, has a lot of negative connotations. When you tell the [i]average[/i] person that everyone is greedy, you will probably not get a very good response.
Saying whether or not people behave altruistically is simple. They do. You can observe and record an organism's behavior.
The problem with this argument is that you aren't only dealing with behavior; you have to throw motivation in the mix, too. So can you measure motivation in an organism? It makes sense to say that people will act out of greed (or, in more conscience-neutral terms, out of [i]self-interest[/i]), but I don't think it's so simple.
A logical argument would be that people act in ways to benefit themselves, and so people can't do things to harm themselves. But the balance for this is hard to find, too. For example, how do you balance the physical harm from taking a bullet for someone with its psychological benefit?. Even with that big of a sacrifice, the harm will probably outbalance the benefit. So, why would a person do such a thing? And how could you prove the reasoning either way?
So I looked up some stuff on wikipedia and found these two opposing reasonings:
You could be behaving altruistically out of empathy. That is, when you see someone in need, and you have yourself been in their situation, you act on their behalf.
Or, you're acting out of egoism. By that, wiki means that everything a person does is for his own gratification. So, there's no altruistic motivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
The second does not make any claims to altruistic motivation, while the former does. In both cases, there [i]is[/i] altruistic behavior.
Whether or not that's beneficial would be a very interesting topic.
So let me know if you don't follow.
[quote=cookieavalanche]Well, sure.. But "greed," though it's an accurate word, has a lot of negative connotations. When you tell the [i]average[/i] person that everyone is greedy, you will probably not get a very good response.
Saying whether or not people behave altruistically is simple. They do. You can observe and record an organism's behavior.
The problem with this argument is that you aren't only dealing with behavior; you have to throw motivation in the mix, too. So can you measure motivation in an organism? It makes sense to say that people will act out of greed (or, in more conscience-neutral terms, out of [i]self-interest[/i]), but I don't think it's so simple.
A logical argument would be that people act in ways to benefit themselves, and so people can't do things to harm themselves. But the balance for this is hard to find, too. For example, how do you balance the physical harm from taking a bullet for someone with its psychological benefit?. Even with that big of a sacrifice, the harm will probably outbalance the benefit. So, why would a person do such a thing? And how could you prove the reasoning either way?
So I looked up some stuff on wikipedia and found these two opposing reasonings:
You could be behaving altruistically out of empathy. That is, when you see someone in need, and you have yourself been in their situation, you act on their behalf.
Or, you're acting out of egoism. By that, wiki means that everything a person does is for his own gratification. So, there's no altruistic motivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
The second does not make any claims to altruistic motivation, while the former does. In both cases, there [i]is[/i] altruistic behavior.
Whether or not that's beneficial would be a very interesting topic.
So let me know if you don't follow.[/quote]
The interperetation of the word altruism is rapidly changing in the contemporary world of Science. Ethological research has discovered, as stated in Campbell + Reece's college level Biology version 6, between chapters 50-55, that altruism is an action that appears to be selfless, but still has a semi-selfish cause, (negating the posibility that anything perfectly fits the definition of altruistic behavior, I know :\) which in most cases (primarily with animals) cause being to better percintile likelihood of successful precreation. You may say that this is not selfish, but genetics program the mind, not the other way around, hence the act is an act of self, because the action is underwent for a longing to accomplish an action among the self.
*sigh* Stop confusing me adam...
You just asked me if I preferred to agree with EVERYONE and i said, no, i don't agree with your view on free will.
and then you said
Of course, because its my opinion...
, this just doesn't make sense...
[quote=Adam Burnfin]The interperetation of the word altruism is rapidly changing in the contemporary world of Science...altruism is an action that appears to be selfless, but still has a semi-selfish cause...[/quote]
Maybe then, altruism isn't the best word. I'm using the traditional interpretation. That is, an act that harms the self while it benefits the other organism.
So, who's to say the cause of these actions?
[quote=cookieavalanche][quote=Adam Burnfin]The interperetation of the word altruism is rapidly changing in the contemporary world of Science...altruism is an action that appears to be selfless, but still has a semi-selfish cause...[/quote]
Maybe then, altruism isn't the best word. I'm using the traditional interpretation. That is, an act that harms the self while it benefits the other organism.
So, who's to say the cause of these actions?[/quote]
I say the cause of these to be genetics, as do most biologists. If a behavior is not innate, it is learned, which is influenced by genetics.
i refuse to take part in this discussion because i dont want to be greedy...wait then i am still being greedy.....but i dont want to ........ yea its a never ending circle
All actions are based on self-preservation, and/or self-satisfaction. Anything and everything stem from them. Selflessness is just a made up belief so people can feel better about themselves when they are kind and considerate of others. It does not exist because we are all selfish in one way, shape, or form. If you died sacrificing yourself for another, you die with the satisfaction of being a so-called selfless human being. Everything is about feeling better about yourself, or looking better to others.
I personally think everything done is for greed of something, say you make a friend, LOOK at that, there's always a reason, whether it's to get cigs, flirt with 'em, or just make yourself look better in others' eyes. Take tests for instance, or classes you take in high school/college you take them to either make yourself feel smarter or to make yourself look better, or just simply because you want to learn about it. Haha even joining a forum site, or porn site for instance, you join a porn site because you want porn, no? And you join a site like this because you want to enlighten yourself further, or in idiot Christians POV, to "prove" the existance of a "God" to non-believers. Everything has a reason behind it, Wow...even waking up, you wake up to appease someone or goto school and learn, or a combination of both, so I think everything IS motivated by greed somewhere. Hm...I think people smoke to get their nicotine fix or calm them down when they're infuriated (I know I do.) or drinking, they either want to get drunk or they want that wonderful taste of the beer. (I've only had small amounts of alchohol, but what little I have had, namely being some of a hardees coffee cup of Vodka (Damn that tasted good...) I would say it's for the taste, or strongness of it.) Everything we do, is motivated by greed, regardless of what it is.
The psychology of MicroEconomics :)