If you had to create a peaceful reality...
Posted on: Tue, 2006-09-05 02:41
If you had to create a peaceful reality...
If you had to create a peaceful reality for this world, how would you do it? No starting from scratch either, you have to start where it has left off... & please try your best to use logic?
simple it would be a communist nation, true communism not the dumb crap everyone assosiates it to be. In theory communisim is a perfect form of government.
Communist is only good to an extent... It's good because in theory if everyone did what they were supposed to there would never be any shortages of anything. But in communism, history stops and time stops and I personally think that's a scary thing.
The only reason communism will never work is because of the human brains need to be better. If people were not so power hungry and greedy than it would work. But there is always going to be someone who wants more and more until they are the top person. That is why it would never work. But still in theory its a beautiful thing.
Bryan
Communism is a horrible and ironic form of government, seconded only by Fascism. Communism is a faux releif from oppresion, replacing shackles with walls, and effectively supporting the idea of individual suppresion which is was originally intended to oppose. A communist nation could never exist, because the very theory of total equity is flawed in that no actual governing can be made without opposition, thus creating a neglected minority and defeating the idea of communism.
The perfect government will never and can never exist, simply because it was always be imperfect in the eyes of one. This is a defunct question, and that is my answer. Go read Animal Farm.
lol nicely put
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Albert Einstein
Bryan
Well, certainly not Platos government. I honestly think that human nature is to try to be as happy as we can possibly be, and if that is true, then I believe that any rigidly structured form of government would not work. Democracy is the most plausable form of government to promote peace IMO, however, certain groups just can not live with each other.... often because of religion. In a peaceful world there would either be only one relgion, or no religion at all, and the world would be seprated into states of around 50000-100000 ppl, each with its own democractically elected government, and one representative to a world congress, which primary purpose would be to promote peace.
Feel free to tear this apart.
The only thing I'm saying for communism is that total equality would be nice. Theoretically, THAT part of it is a good idea. GrapeScentedGuru, whoever that may be, wrote an extremely good argument, as did Bryan when he said "The only reason communism will never work is because of the human brains need to be better. If people were not so power hungry and greedy than it would work."
Utopia by Thomas More is a great book about the Utopian society (no kidding). I recommend it.
[quote=Bryan T]simple it would be a communist nation, true communism not the dumb crap everyone assosiates it to be. In theory communisim is a perfect form of government. [/quote]
I would definitely have to agree. I have a communist friend and he's teaching me about it and I'm loving the idea.
perfectly peaceful you say? well, first i would stockpile nukes, and blow up the world. the only perfect peace is when everything is null and void. with humans there cannot be peace.
The perfect political model is a realistic one... certainly not communism :) communism and anarchism sound great but just can't work... a balance between socalism and capitalsm (fair trade or the third way) I think is the best way. It surely works in scandinavia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_welfare_in_Sweden
And of course it would be totally secular... no advantages for any religion!
government would be unncecessary. Of course, in a perfect world, everything would exist in stasis, and nothing would ever happen, as there would be no incentive for anything. That is one of the reasons that a perfect god creating the world is all too illogical.
-There is no sin save faith
Of course... the whole notion of perfection is too abstract and elusive. A perfect being after all would have no need to create anything, these are all lousy humane traits :). I'm just talking about a viable economical/political system.
well, perfect... for what? perfect in everything is impossible and contradictory to a point. it has to revolve around one main thing to be perfect about. which i am still skeptical about. It depends on how you define perfect
Well, desiring true communism is basically desiring a contained, docile human race. This means a lot of other things suffer, such as the arts, innovation in technology, and what is avaliable as far as commercial goods go. And since we're talking about a nation and not a world, this means your citizens would see other nations thriving under different systems and object to your own.
Communism is to government what walls are to windows. It's very safe, but impractical to the human spirit.
Also, human beings could not survive without strife and war. We'd lose sight of ourselves as accomplished beings, which is something the human race depends on to keep motivated to improve and expand. Think of what the world would have been like if not for WWII. Would we be so cautious about nuclear weapons? Would we be so cautious about fascism and racialism? What would today's generations know of the evils of genocide?
it works in Scandanavia because they're a really liberal region. Can you imagine imposing a socialist government on the middle east or China, or the south US? Every liberal would be pretty happy with it, but the conservatives, radicals, and reactionaries would flip =P
Leftists would be happy with it, but no liberals. Communism replaces liberty with set standards that mostly are considered leftist. However, there is a difference between leftism and libertarianism.
I'm a libertarianism and a socialist, but I'd be pissed to the point of physical rebellion. I'd be more disgusted with the person who induces communism than the one that voted for Bush.
I'm talking about Social Democracy. Socialism has become a quite meaningless term here in Europe... it can mean anything from communist to what you'd call a democrat or a liberal (that's what Social Democrats mostly resemble).
I dont hate government, but i do hate how people loosely talk about it without being knowledgable, so either please, look up your facts, then post, or post and acknowledge the fact you are unsure. this is not aimed at anyone. but just for future reference . it makes things much more influential
i think we would need to regress to the point where there was no contact between different groups, basically back to the cavemen days, and probably have a lot of the technology back. perfect harmony just wont happen, hypocrisy is the world we live in. the world we live in expects too much and no major change, even if it was positive, would be universally accepted and that would cause problems. interesting idea but no right answer really.
my only feasible idea would be some sort of machine to help people achieve a state of constant orgasm.. could work.
Just a point, but what about the Native Americans? They lived without a government, simply surviving on a social order passed down by tradition. They had a near-incorruptable economy, fuedes beween tribes were rare until the white man fucked it up, and most interesting of all, they were the most recent culture to fully embrace homosexuality. They didn't pollute, they didn't make any holy war, and they had a penal system based on the person as well as the crime, which was directed by a council.
Sounds like the ultimate utopia to me. Just gotta look out for those damned white people with their 'monarchy' and their 'manifest destiny'.
That it may be, but really, based on the way we live now, do you think we could go back to that?
No, no we couldn't. I'm talking regression, as what's-his-face did. But regression isn't solving a problem, it's ignoring one.
I would create an active, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God. Also I would bring forth the absence of pain (If I may steal a page from Epicurus.) Seriously, lets be honest, I don't care what your theological standpoint is, what would be "bad" about this reality?
I'd make a world with a culture in which the highest shame would be dependency. People would be motivated to never have to depend on others to support them.
Self-defense would be culturally enshrined and so deeply involved that not defending oneself without good reason would be the second highest shame and make you a pariah. Walking outside without gun in your holster would be on par with what going outside naked is today. Muggers, rapists, and murderers would be shot if anyone were able to witness it or the victim was consious when attacked, resulting in very small numbers of these kinds of attacks, which would only be purpetrated by madmen or suicidal idiots.
It would be the end of the world as we know it and the beginning of the world as it should be.
It would be the end of welfare, the end of crime, and the beginning of a world where people worked hard (to stay independant) and cooperated in peace (to avoid potential violence which would surely penalize aggressors).
No oppression. No aggression. That's all the world needs, and I think the best means to that end is a culture of supreme independance.
[quote=blood pig][quote=Bryan T]simple it would be a communist nation, true communism not the dumb crap everyone assosiates it to be. In theory communisim is a perfect form of government. [/quote]
I would definitely have to agree. I have a communist friend and he's teaching me about it and I'm loving the idea.
[/quote]
Your thoughts on this will change in time.
I thought communism was all glorious as well when I was younger, now I see that it's just as bad as 2 trains about to collide on the same track.
There is a reason why some of the greatest philosophers of all time have written about the social contract and about the collective being the ultimate reality. Read Liviathan by Hobbes... it'll change your life. And if it doesn't... then read the follow up by Karl Schmitt. They're fantastic.
As for a peaceful reality, I really don't think it can exist. Humans are inherently brute. There will always be someone running around causing trouble.
[quote=Kian]As for a peaceful reality, I really don't think it can exist. Humans are inherently brute. There will always be someone running around causing trouble.[/quote]
I think the intend of the thread was to offer input on ways to minimize violent conflict (prefrably without blowing up the whole world). Not to discuss how perfection is absolutely unreachable.
[quote=Zhwazi][quote=Kian]As for a peaceful reality, I really don't think it can exist. Humans are inherently brute. There will always be someone running around causing trouble.[/quote]
I think the intend of the thread was to offer input on ways to minimize violent conflict (prefrably without blowing up the whole world). Not to discuss how perfection is absolutely unreachable.[/quote]
What? Really? Sorry, I'm just learning how to read and understand english. Can you do me a really big favor? Just... you know, follow me around on all the threads and explain every tiny detail for me.
It was an opinion on something that had to do with the discussion...
Sure, I'd be glad to.
Back in the day people loved democracy... now in my generation it seems alot of us want it gone... I think alot of people want lawlessness and maybe that'll bring happiness with no rules. I speak for myself and I think most of the world, we ALL have degraded ourselves. We do not want freedom and pefer stuff like communism... you never learned about China obviously. Success and the rate of success is one thing but the sanity of your people is another.with communism there is limited freedom... very limited freedom... Here we have the right to believe in what we want say what we want (sometimes I think that's a bad thing lol) do alot of things that other people would die to have and we want to reject it... I think some of us should live in China or Africa and I will garuntee a change of mind
I'd arrange for an alien invasion. No really the only way we humans are ever going to stop fighting each other is if we have outside invadors to fight against.
Ender's Game approach? Interesting. I think a better approach would be to not let criminals or people in the bottom %20 of ability have children. And mod the laws so that only killing, raping, enslaving, and stealing are illegal. Plus contract enforcement.
I don't think I would advocate this in reality, but if I was going to live forever I could make sure I put the kibosh on the civil rights violations.
A perfect order would need people to interact on a constant basis. Whenever people interact there will be some crazy people who screw it up for the rest of us. The perfect society would somehow illuminate all dangerous individuals and all disputes would be settled by discussion. - I personally think that the closest thing to this would be to somehow make men more like women. Women are so much less violent then men. The second (or it could be the first) would be to remove the irrationality behind religions, cults, and patriotism. People do crazy things for these organizations. The final thing would be to somehow completely find and treat (nonviolently) crazy people. People that no matter how much social training and rationality - will kill and injure others... and the only way to keep this from happening is either drugs or some sort of restraining... prison or asylum
A nonviolent society would eliminate so much trouble, I believe that without war and other expensive things, people could work together to fix the rest of the ills of society. ( this sounds optimistic... and it proabably isnt pragmatic...)
[quote=Guruite] ( this sounds optimistic... and it proabably isnt pragmatic...)[/quote]
Isn't that the point of this discussion? Obviously if it were pragmatic, you would actually do it.
Well, I was trying to somehow conform to the laws of reality (aside from the one about me being god and changing the world and all...)
I overall I think that if we had a nonviolent society it would be an almost perfect society, because we could focus our efforts to the other natural disasters, diseases, and conditions of humankind - instead of dealing with crazy dictators and other violent individuals.
[quote=JoshHickman]Ender's Game approach?[/quote]
Or Indipendence Day. Either way it would work, at least once we fought off the aliens.
[quote]Interesting. I think a better approach would be to not let criminals or people in the bottom %20 of ability have children. [/quote]
On that note, have you seen the movie Idocracy?
[quote]And mod the laws so that only killing, raping, enslaving, and stealing are illegal. Plus contract enforcement. [/quote]
An interesting idea, but I dont think it would work in real life.