You go boy!

All I can really say is that at least you understand that you will have no one to blame but yourself.

I, too was raised a Presbyterian. I am not still Christian because I have led a sheltered life, but because I understand that, without knowing God, I cannot know anything. Many implications of Christianity I hate, like original sin and total depravity, but I believe them because they are needed to understand anything.

What you said about the future of America reminds me a lot of what the critics of Christianity have always said. America is no longer the growing place of Christianity, but China and South Korea. If Christianity were really so easily disposed of, the Romans would have millenia ago.

Side-point: Ignore ethnicity on all religious paintings/ pictures/ etc. I have yet to see Jesus depicted as a Jew.

Hi, T-Wag.

[quote]Dear Readers,

I was born a Presbyterian Christian.[/quote]
Rather, you were born into a Presbyterian Christian home. You can't be "born Christian."

[quote]I went to Church every Sunday. I was a devoted Christian, I followed the rules of the Bible. I read books from the Bible.[/quote]
Well, good for you.

[quote]Years later, my aunt died of breast cancer after many rounds of chemotherapy.
If God loves us all, why would he let the ones he love, die in such horrible pain and misery?[/quote]
Interesting. So it was only [i]after[/i] someone you knew died that you started to care about the death? You didn't see it as cruel when you heard about the millions of people that die from cancer every year, but it suddenly prompted questions when it became personal? How typical.

The answer to your question is this: I have no idea. Really, I have not a clue. But in my mind, it doesn't matter ultimately. For one, whatever amount of suffering we encounter in this life will pail in comparison to the pleasure we feel in the second. Secondly, if this God that loves us all actually exists, there is an explanation for him allowing humans to go through painful deaths. We may not be able to see it now, but looking back on it later may make a lot more sense.

I know that's probably not a satisfying answer to you. And to tell you the truth, it's not for me either. But it's all I can really give, at this point.

[quote]This brought questions to my young mind.
I started searching around, asking elders their views on God. Of course, my whole family is Christian.
I have found myself in hard situations where I needed a crutch to get by things. Which is where Christianity comes into place.

I have come to find that Christianity is nothing more than a crutch. A false hope of security. Letting people know what they want to hear.[/quote]
Unfortunately true in our modern age. But I hope that you realize that this is not an argument against the validity of Christianity.

For it to be, you have to demonstrate that the ancient Hebrews invented Christianity [i]initially[/i] as a crutch. I think this is highly, highly unlikely due to the sometimes violent nature of the God they would have created. Who invents a God who kills off the entire planet for not following it's rules as an [b]emotional crutch[/b]?

[quote]When of all people, most Christians are hypocritical. The most hypocritical people you will ever meet. The devot Christians who get drunk, do drugs, smoke cigarettes, have casual sex, have babies before marriage, and then ask for forgiveness every Sunday.[/quote]
I'll grant you that some are hypocritical, as this is my experience too. But to say that [i]most[/i] Christians are "the most hypocritical people you will ever meet," is downright dishonest. It's merely a sweeping generalization.

I'll go so far as to say that I'm not very hypocritical. I'm certainly not perfect...Nowhere near. But I don't "get drunk, do drugs, smoke cigarettes, have casual sex, or have babies before marriage."

[quote]Yet all of those are slights against God. What do you want to believe happens to you when you die? That you live eternelly in Heaven thereafter? Sure, people like to hear that, people would like to know that after they die they get whatever they want. Which is, what I ultimately believe why people believe in Christianity.[/quote]
This is true of some, but again, not all. My dad, in fact, a Christian for many years, has never liked the concept of Heaven. The concept completely turns him off...He thinks that it will be boring. He's more into living life in the right now, rather than having a pie-in-the-sky view. It's somewhat true of me as well.

I happen to believe in Christianity because it seems that the evidence support it. I have yet to find a valid, persuasive argument for the non-existence of the historical Jesus. And I have yet to find any good or valid reason that Jesus was a liar, or was mistaken, or was lied about, etc. The evidence seems to pail in comparison, and most atheist arguments involve an extreme double-standard regarding documents and evidence. I have also yet to be persuaded by naturalistic theories about the resurrection. I can't understand, as tired of an argument as this may be, that many disciples would go unto their deaths preaching the Gospel if it was actually a lie.

Etc.

[quote]I personally believe people believe in God, so that they are promised a place in Heaven, so that they can believe they go there after they die so they can live in harmony.[/quote]
I really think that you only believe that because that's why [i]you[/i] believed in God. This is certainly not true for many people I know.

In fact, the way I see it, if you have faith because it will get you to heaven, then your faith isn't worth having at all. It's even debateable that it means you aren't even a real Christian. True salvation is faith that produces works. If you're merely in it for you, living your life your way and thinking, "It's okay, I'm going to heaven," then you have nothing.

[quote]So, if this is true, why was Jesus the lucky one who had his WHOLE body taken the Heaven. Where did his body disappear to? Wouldn't you have been able to see him go to Heaven? Why are our bones left in the ground?[/quote]
Well, it wasn't just Jesus. Elijah, you may remember (if you've actually read your Bible), was swept up in a chariot.

And how in the world was Jesus "lucky" to be beaten, whipped, mocked, and hung by three nails on a piece of wood until he suffocated?

[quote]Why do you think so many prison inmates convert to Christianity? Because once they get out of prison, they pretty much no longer have a life worth living on Earth.[/quote]
Seems like you're still excluding the possibilities God is actually working in their lives, or that they come to accept it because there is evidence to support it.

My uncle got saved in prison for completely different reasons, I may add.

[quote]I believe Christianity is a crutch for people who are too weak to face the facts of the real world, to face the facts of science, of evolution, of the fact that a God cannot exist without interferring with our world, which stated in the Bible, said God would not do.[/quote]
So what would you say to Dr. Francis Collins, the president of the Human Genome Project, who accepts evolution but also believes that Christianity is true? Would you say that he's too weak to face the facts of the real world, or science?

Wait, the Bible says God wouldn't interfere with our world? Where, exactly?

[quote]It is impossible for 6+ billion people to inhabit this Earth in 6,000 years. (4,004 B.C. Christian belief when the Earth was created)
It is impossible for 6+ billion people to inhabit this Earth in 4,000 years. (Noah only brought 2 humans with him in 2004 B.C.)[/quote]
I agree. That's why I'm not a YEC. You shouldn't label, you know. All Christians are not YEC. In fact, [i]many[/i] of them aren't.

[quote]Could you please tell me, how 2 people could creat 6+ billion people without having genetic mutations and all of us being hideous freaks?[/quote]
"All of us [are] hideous freaks?" Thanks, T-Wag, I appreciate that.

[quote]Could you please tell me, if we all started from Adam and Eve, portrayed as two white beings, could have branched off into, Asians, African, Indian, Hispanic?[/quote]
[b]Portrayed?[/b] So in other words, what you see in pop culture in paintings is what actually happened? Do you believe Jesus was white too? Did you believe that God is an old, bearded white man sitting on the clouds? Sheesh.

The answer to this question really isn't baffling at all: Natural selection. As humanity migrated away from each other, each adapted in turn to it's own environment, which involved a change of hair color and skin color.

[quote]I find it more of a mystery of how metal came to Earth that I find God a mystery.[/quote]
\m/

[quote]The Moon, which was created by an asteroid hitting Earth, blasting off a huge chunk of Earth, and catching the Earth's gravational pull could be the same very reason of how Earth was created. By an asteroid.[/quote]
Then the question logically follows of where did the asteroid come from? Where did the planet that ultimately birthed Earth come from?

[quote]If God is real, why is there no books saying how he created the other 7 planets (not considering Pluto).[/quote]
Poor Pluto...

The answer, I think, is also quite simple. The author of Genesis was talking about how the Earth came to be, since that was what was relevant to people who probably had no idea that other planets existed. Nobody would write about something they didn't know existed.

[quote]Also, what about the other galaxies, did the Almighty God create them too?[/quote]
Well, it would make sense, given Genesis 1:1.

[quote]Have Christian's taken into consideration the the Holy Bible was written hundreds and hundreds of years AFTER the death of Jesus?[/quote]
Hahahaha...Hundreds and hundreds? You're going to have to substantiate that claim. What's your test for determining the date of documents?

[quote]Also that most the stories are fictional and just telling us to be morally good.[/quote]
I take it that you were lying, then, when you said you read the Bible. If you actually believe that most of the Bible is merely telling us to be good, then you haven't read it.

[quote]Which goes back to my argument, the Bible is another part of the Christianity Crutch.
It teaches us how to live our lives as "God" thinks we should. So we do as it says, and we live our lives morally right, being promised a seat in Heaven.[/quote]
Sorry, but the Bible is not a self-help book. You shouldn't treat it as one. You should treat it for what it is: a collection of many different books from different authors written over the course of thousands of years, containing everything from poetry to history to philosophy to erotic diaries to psychology.

[quote]I will be an Atheist until the Anti-Christ comes to power, has the Christian holocaust, we go through the Seven Revalations, we have the second coming of Christ, Armageddon Day, I am to spend and eternity in Hell. Then, and ONLY then, will I bow to God and other Christians in Heaven, ask for God to repent all my sins, ask for forgiveness, and for God to be let into my heart.[/quote]
Most futurists would say that by then, it would be way too late for you to be saved.

[quote]Otherwise, I see Christianity as a Crutch for the weak soul and mind, for something as simplistic and underminded to be part of my life, I see it as another trend,[/quote]
And I see your view as an incredibly simplistic and misinformed one. I do hope that you will look into the evidence for the Gospels rather than form beliefs about it from pop Christianity.

[quote]when in a few hundred years of so, Christianity will hardly be around in America, or anywhere in the world.[/quote]
Voltaire said the same thing centuries ago. But here I am.

[quote]Thank you,
T-Wag[/quote]
You're welcome,
P-Dunn

[quote]Rather, you were born into a Presbyterian Christian home. You can't be "born Christian."[/quote]
that is what i meant.

[quote]Well, good for you.[/quote]
i agree, i always thought god would help answer my questions and problems, yet i have been better off being an atheist than a christian.
[quote]Interesting. So it was only [i]after[/i] someone you knew died that you started to care about the death? You didn't see it as cruel when you heard about the millions of people that die from cancer every year, but it suddenly prompted questions when it became personal? How typical.[/quote] i know millions of people die from cancer every year. my best friend has AML Leukemia, my girlfriend has meduallary thyroid cancer. i didn't only prompt questions because it is personal, yet at the time i didn't know much about cancer, since i was so young, i wasn't too big into looking into the field of medicine and disease.

[quote]Unfortunately true in our modern age. But I hope that you realize that this is not an argument against the validity of Christianity[/quote] i never said it was a argument against the validity of christianity, i was just saying i believe it is a crutch. did people in ancient hebrew times live amazing lives? did they want a way to live in peace and have an after life that is better than the life they led then? personally, i think that is what everyone wants.

[quote]I'll grant you that some are hypocritical, as this is my experience too. But to say that [i]most[/i] Christians are "the most hypocritical people you will ever meet," is downright dishonest. It's merely a sweeping generalization.[/quote]
most christians are, well most christian's around the ages of 14-17 who learn what pot is, and they have sex for the first time, yet still say they have "virgin ears" and are devoted to god 100%.
[quote]I'll go so far as to say that I'm not very hypocritical. I'm certainly not perfect...Nowhere near. But I don't "get drunk, do drugs, smoke cigarettes, have casual sex, or have babies before marriage."[/quote] as neither do i. i am straightedge, i don't drink, smoke, do drugs, have casual sex.
some straightedgers believe religion is a poison, considering it is not normal to the body, it is something we have to let into ourselves.

[quote]I happen to believe in Christianity because it seems that the evidence support it. I have yet to find a valid, persuasive argument for the non-existence of the historical Jesus. And I have yet to find any good or valid reason that Jesus was a liar, or was mistaken, or was lied about, etc. The evidence seems to pail in comparison, and most atheist arguments involve an extreme double-standard regarding documents and evidence. I have also yet to be persuaded by naturalistic theories about the resurrection. I can't understand, as tired of an argument as this may be, that many disciples would go unto their deaths preaching the Gospel if it was actually a lie.[/quote]i have found more evidence to support that god does not exist. i know jesus was a real man, he was a carpenter, he was said to be a messiah to the christians and a prophet to the muslims and jews. you can't really prove jesus was a liar until we all die. but the fact that most people believe the ancient greek god do not exist, why should the christian god?
the disciples were to spread the word, that is what they believed, i spread the word of a medicine called cellular zeolite that helps fight cancer, and i spread the word of being straightedge. just because they preach the gospel doesn't mean it wasn't a lie.

[quote]I really think that you only believe that because that's why [i]you[/i] believed in God. This is certainly not true for many people I know.[/quote] that is not why i believed in god. i was too young to even comprehend that when i was a christian. i believed in god because that is what my grandparents taught me was right. to treat everyone who respect, to be good to yourself, and to stay out of trouble and i would be promised a place in heaven. yet, i would much rather be reincarnated than spend an eternity in heaven. yet you can't really prove reincarnation is real either.

[quote]Seems like you're still excluding the possibilities God is actually working in their lives, or that they come to accept it because there is evidence to support it.[/quote]
and my uncle also converted into christianity when he went to prison, because most prison inmates know that after prison, they will be looked down upon by most of society and it will be hard for them to have a job and live a normal life in society, so they want to believe that they can live a perfect life once they get to heaven.

[quote]So what would you say to Dr. Francis Collins, the president of the Human Genome Project, who accepts evolution but also believes that Christianity is true? Would you say that he's too weak to face the facts of the real world, or science?[/quote] personally, yes

[quote]Wait, the Bible says God wouldn't interfere with our world? Where, exactly?[/quote] that is what the preists at my old church, lawrenceville presbyterian church taught me. but i will break out my bible, find it and let you know, and we can debate about this more, i do not have a logical argument about this at this moment.

[quote]I agree. That's why I'm not a YEC. You shouldn't label, you know. All Christians are not YEC. In fact, [i]many[/i] of them aren't.[/quote]another part of the world be created in 4004 b.c is that the dinosaurs would be alive when the people were alive, we would have to have the ice age, and the great flood, there would be writings about the dinosaurs eating people, there are none. there would be writings about the flood, yet the pyramids were being built around that time, and NO other area in the world had writings about a flood wiping out the existence of life on earth. this helps me believe that the bible is just another piece of fictional writing.

[quote]"All of us [are] hideous freaks?" Thanks, T-Wag, I appreciate that.[/quote] i did not say we ARE hideous freaks, i am just saying that if we all came from 2 people, then we would be. our DNA would be genetically mutated causing us to be mutants.

[quote][b]Portrayed?[/b] So in other words, what you see in pop culture in paintings is what actually happened? Do you believe Jesus was white too? Did you believe that God is an old, bearded white man sitting on the clouds? Sheesh.[/quote] no, but i have yet to see a picture of jesus as a jew or where it says his REAL name of joshua.

[quoteThe answer to this question really isn't baffling at all: Natural selection. As humanity migrated away from each other, each adapted in turn to it's own environment, which involved a change of hair color and skin color.[/quote] that can't be true, white people live in south africa, and they are still white, the egyptians weren't black, yet the rest of african is black.

[quote]\m/[/quote] not the metal as in music, yet i do enjoy a good metal band, i meant the metal as in the periodic table.

[quote]Then the question logically follows of where did the asteroid come from? Where did the planet that ultimately birthed Earth come from?[/quote]as where the rest of the asteroids come from, space, scientists believe that is how the moon was created. it could also be true with earth, a huge asteroid could have caught the gravitional pull of the sun. boom, we have earth.

[quote]The answer, I think, is also quite simple. The author of Genesis was talking about how the Earth came to be, since that was what was relevant to people who probably had no idea that other planets existed. Nobody would write about something they didn't know existed.[/quote]the mayan's knew the other plants existed. and that was before the bible was even written. so how would the mayan's know the other plantets existed, but not christians?

[quote]Also, what about the other galaxies, did the Almighty God create them too?[/quote]
[quote]Well, it would make sense, given Genesis 1:1.[/quote]good point

[quote]Have Christian's taken into consideration the the Holy Bible was written hundreds and hundreds of years AFTER the death of Jesus?[/quote]
[quote]Hahahaha...Hundreds and hundreds? You're going to have to substantiate that claim. What's your test for determining the date of documents?[/quote]
they didn't start writing the bible until SEVENTY years after the death of jesus. or that is what i read.

[quote]Also that most the stories are fictional and just telling us to be morally good.[/quote]
[quote]I take it that you were lying, then, when you said you read the Bible. If you actually believe that most of the Bible is merely telling us to be good, then you haven't read it.[/quote]
does the bible tell you to save yourself for marriage? to not have casual sex? to not abort? that homosexuality is not right in the eyes of god? that you should not do drugs? that you should treat others how you want to be treated? the bible tells you how to be good, but i can be good being an atheist [:

[quote]Which goes back to my argument, the Bible is another part of the Christianity Crutch.
It teaches us how to live our lives as "God" thinks we should. So we do as it says, and we live our lives morally right, being promised a seat in Heaven.[/quote]
[quote]Sorry, but the Bible is not a self-help book. You shouldn't treat it as one. You should treat it for what it is: a collection of many different books from different authors written over the course of thousands of years, containing everything from poetry to history to philosophy to erotic diaries to psychology.[/quote] which is exactly why you can't prove anything from the bible is or is not true. it is just like a game of telephone, everything gets mixed up and jumbled. to me, the bible teaches me how to live a life in the eyes of god to be gived a seat in heaven.

[quote]I will be an Atheist until the Anti-Christ comes to power, has the Christian holocaust, we go through the Seven Revalations, we have the second coming of Christ, Armageddon Day, I am to spend and eternity in Hell. Then, and ONLY then, will I bow to God and other Christians in Heaven, ask for God to repent all my sins, ask for forgiveness, and for God to be let into my heart.[/quote]
[quote]Most futurists would say that by then, it would be way too late for you to be saved.[/quote]
well, i guess i am damned to an eternity in hell then. see a lot of people there.

[quote]Otherwise, I see Christianity as a Crutch for the weak soul and mind, for something as simplistic and underminded to be part of my life, I see it as another trend,[/quote]
[quote]And I see your view as an incredibly simplistic and misinformed one. I do hope that you will look into the evidence for the Gospels rather than form beliefs about it from pop Christianity. [/quote]
i am actually reading the four gospels right now. a girl in my physics class wants me to read them so we can have a debate, she is trying to get me to convert to christianity, which make, once again, most christians hyptocritical, since god says you should not force beliefs onto other people.

[quote]when in a few hundred years of so, Christianity will hardly be around in America, or anywhere in the world.[/quote]
[quote]Voltaire said the same thing centuries ago. But here I am.[/quote]athiesm is growing in america, as well in the world, as well as other religions, more and more people are starting to not believe in christianity. sure, it is still the biggest religion in the world, but give it time.

[quote]Thank you,
T-Wag[/quote]
You're welcome,
P-Dunn[/quote]
we should do this again soon.

noah took more than only 2 people onboard..if historical documents are correct he took his 3 sons Shem, Ham and Japheth and each of their wives..and his own wife..as to beins saved once one enters into eteranl darkness.....it is to late for one to be rescued by God...He doesnt let one live on earth for no reason...one is to serve Him..God is a sympathetic God with unconditional love. But once one enters Hell...There is no turning back.it is merely cheating for one to be forgiven once condemed of sins..if that was the case...no body would try to serve God the best they can..because they already kno that it doesnt matter because one can ask for forgivness once in Hell

Firstly, some of your doctrine is wrong: There is one Revelation, which is the Book of. The Bible does not say anything about "being morally right" in order to get into Heaven, it only says to believe in Christ. And if you "will be an Atheist until the Anti-Christ comes to power, has the Christian holocaust, we go through the Seven Revalations, we have the second coming of Christ, Armageddon Day, I am to spend and eternity in Hell" you will a) not believe he is the antichrist, because you don't believe in God. You won't believe that it's armageddon, you'll believe what the media tells you it is, and b), by the time you're "to spend an eternity in hell" it will be too late to "bow to God and other Christians in Heaven, ask for God to repent all my sins, ask for forgiveness, and for God to be let into my heart," because you will have had Moses and the prophets, as it were, and ignored them.

As for Christ's body, seeing as He is God made flesh, I dont think you have any argument in comparing yourself to him. See, the whole basis of Christianity is faith; if you don't believe it, then it won't make sense to you. Hence the verse, " you need to have the faith of a little child." capice?

However, I can understand how you would be put off of Christianity, by all of the hypocrisy. And I agree, Christianity is a crutch - when it's turned into a religion full of laws and taboos. See, God doesn't ask for your good works, he doesnt care what you can do for him; the whole point of SALVATION is that you don't do anything except have faith; But people like the feeling of 'doing something for God' and this is good works, which makes it a religion, and therefore pointless.

As for the whole pain and suffering part of your argument, I could also explain that to you, but it wouldnt be much point would it? Because it wouldnt make any difference, only another 'Christian' explanation, right?

are you seriously saying that the christian god is a "sympathetic" god? yet he has supposedly wiped out the human population twice? pretty sympathetic to me, not.

if one is doomed to hell, why bother going to church? if you go to church, and ask for forgiveness, you are forgiven and allowed into heaven. it is total bullshit, anyone and everyone can get into heaven as long as they ask for forgiveness, i can go out, kill 15 people, bomb a hospital, say, "fuck you god", convert to christianity, ask for forgiveness for my sins, say that i have let god into my heart and i will be allowed into heaven.

fuck all this religious bullshit.

ok, the bible doesn't blatantly point out you have to be morally right, but what does the bible tell you to do? refrain from drugs, refrain from drinking, refrain from smoking, do not kill, do not commit adultry.

sounds like a morally right person to me.

are you serious? saying christianity won't make sense to me? i wasted my life on one of the stupidest lies in the world until i was 11.
"if you tell a lie enough, loudly enough, and long enough, the myth will become accepted as a fact."
well, seems that what christianity can be put into.

personally, i respect you for your beliefs, but it is too easy to be presumed false.

What does the Bible tell you to do? It doesnt mention anything about smoking and drugs, only to take care of your body. Is being healthy a moral virtue? No, it's called common sense. Don't cheat on your wife. Yeah, virtue. Are you saying that now that you're emancipated from your "stupid lie" you will cheat on whomever you're with? I dont think so. And the Bible doesn't say "dont drink" it says "dont do anything in excess coz it lead to stupid things and illness." Is being smart a virtue? I'm afraid that what you term as the stupidest lie makes more sense than you're presumption that everyone will believe something if it's repeated long enough.
Personally, I respect your decision to not believe, but it's too easy to judge something based on something you don't totally know, i.e. the Bible. I would suggest that you get to know the counter-arguement properly before you state your claim.

[quote=twag]

anyone and everyone can get into heaven as long as they ask for forgiveness, i can go out, kill 15 people, bomb a hospital, say, "fuck you god", convert to christianity, ask for forgiveness for my sins, say that i have let god into my heart and i will be allowed into heaven.
[/quote]

naw....it doesn't really work quite like that, 'cause God's not an idiot and he kinda knows if you're actually sorry about killing people and bombing the hospital and all that or not. so i guess if you did all that crap and were actually sorry and asked to be forgiven, then yeah, God would forgive you, but if you weren't sorry God's not gonna be like "heck yeah, he's a liar doing lip service, and he just killed a bunch of people! i am definitely forgiving him!" because that's just dumb.

oh, and about the anyone and everyone getting into heaven...um, it'd be kinda stupid if NOT anyone and everyone could "get into heaven" because then it'd be like a huge elitist society and that's not what God's about. and obviously just saying "hey, i'm a christian" doesn't make you one, because if you really were a christian you'd love God, if you loved God you'd try to obey Him, and therefore you wouldn't go around killing people or blowing up hospitals because that's obviously not something God would condone. so yeah, anyone and everyone can be a christian, but it's not like you can just say the magic password and go to heaven.

You claim to be a morally good person and you don't have to be a Christian to be one. Well let me ask you this question. By what standard are you comparing your morality to? In other words, who told you what is good or bad?

The bible says "Do not steal". If someone steals from you, do you think that person is a good person or bad person? Your answer will show that you are using a moral standard that you got from somewhere. That moral standard is from God. So even if you don't believe in him, your act of trying to be a moral person shows me that you do believe in God or you would be running around like a wild animal killing people.

That brings me to this next point. In order to go to heaven, you need to be without sin, not even one. The commandments of the bible was NOT given to us to show us how to be good people. In fact the bible teaches that good people do not go to heaven. It actually was given to us to do the opposite, show us how we are not good people. And no matter how hard you try to be good, you will find yourself always failing. See for yourself. Take the moral test.

1) Have you ever stole before?
2) Jesus said, if you even look at a woman and lust after her, you commit adultery. Have you ever committed adultery?
3) Have you ever lied before?
4) Have you ever be disobedient to your parents?

These are just a few. How did you do? If you are like me, you probably failed horribly.

These are the standards of being a morally Good person according to the laws of God. How about if we try this same thing with the law of man. When you are on the freeway, you may have noticed the speed limit is 65. How many people do you see doing 65. Isn't it funny how everyone is going just a bit faster than 65. So if a cop pulls them over, he can say, “You were breaking the law, so I will have to give you a ticket.” If the speed limit sign was not posted, he will have no reason to give us a ticket.

So it is with the commandments. If we did not have the commandments, we would not know we were breaking the laws of God. God expects us to be perfect but we cannot be perfect by following the commandment. This is a big problem. Why would God put this burden on us if He knew we cannot be perfect by following the commandment? The answer is quite simple. You see, there are a lot of people in this world that is going around saying, "I don't need God. I can be good without him!" So he gave us the commandments as guidelines to say, this is what perfection is. If you can do not only the 10 commandments but the 613 commandments, I will declare you to be a righteous person. He is hoping that we will come to our senses and say, "It is impossible to be perfect!"

If you came to that conclusion, then you will be able to start seeing his perfect plan to make you perfect. It is the plan he revealed from the time Adam and Eve missed the mark of perfection. He told them that they will have a son that will be their savior. And we know today that that savior is Jesus Christ. He is the only one that was able to obey all of the commandments without breaking one. So He was the only one that achieved perfection in the sight of God. And the greatest part of this is that He did it because we could not. He did it so that we won’t have to pay the penalty for our sins. He did it so that you don't have to try to be perfect only to find out that you cannot. He did it to show you how much God loves you. Jesus did this and said that if anyone believes that he paid the “ticket” for our sins, and all you have to do is believe and he will give you the payment receipt that your ticket has been paid in full. Do you believe?

So is being a moral person easy? Absolutely! But only if you accept Christ.

By the way, this may not mean anything to you because you don't believe in God. I just whish you would prove first that there is not God before you dismiss Him. And don't repeat those lame examples you said earlier. Give me the hard evidence like Jesus gave me when he predicted he would die and be raise from the dead after 3 days. Now that is hard evidence! Do you have such evidence? Did you die, saw that there is no heaven, no hell, no God and now you are back to proclaim the truth? Who should I listen to, Jesus who claimed to be “The way, the truth and the life” or should I listen to you? Someone that is wet behind the ears and just started thinking about life and thinks he has it all figured out? Sorry, I think I will take my chances with Jesus and maybe you should to.

well, if i am mistaken, since i am reading the bible, it says to take care of your mortal body to be allowed into heaven. i.e. don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs. nothing non-natural to the body.

if one of the 10 commandments is a virture, then why is it a commandment? it must have some meaning to the christian faith, as in, be loyal to those you love.
you don't have to believe in a fictional character to be loyal to someone you love, the bible is telling you how to live your life for false hope you can live a better one in heaven.

How can being smart be a virture when there are mentally incapable people in this world? does the mean they aren't allowed into heaven since they aren't smart enough?

you can't say you have never been talked into something that was a lie.
example: your parents telling you bill clinton was a bad president for what he did. they tell you enough, and long enough, you believe he was a bad president.
when in fact, he made our economy the strongest it has ever been in 35 years and also the lowest number of people on welfare in 35 years unlike his counter-part, george bush, if you parents told you he was a good president, and what he was doing was right, and they told you that long enough, and many times over and over, you will believe that us being in iraq is the right thing to do, and that georgia bush spends over 1.4 billion dollars a day, just to keep them in iraq.

and unless the bible i am reading is incorrect, i am not basing my judgement on anything i don't know, but from what i heard, the king james bibles aren't that great.

i suggest you listen to my whole claim before you present your argument.

ok then, you make a half-way good point. but not really.

go visit your local prison, ask all the inmates what their religious beliefs were BEFORE they went in prison, and then AFTER they have been in prison.

i bet you a majority did NOT believe in god before they went to prison, and a majority has converted after they were sent to prison.
why? because this is their only hope for salvation, because once they get out, they can't get a good job, they won't have a clean record, they are pretty much stripped of their rights.

also, how can you say god is not an idiot? did you personally ask him yourself? because from what the bible stats, god seems like an idiot to me.

also, your first statement about how he doesn't allow people who aren't truly sorry and your second statement on how he allows all people into heaven kind of collide and nullify each other.

and the sentence about if you tried to obey god, and you don't go around killing people, then why do we have armed forces? most of the armed forces are christian, so since i suppose they are christian they shouldn't kill anyone because it is a slight against god and they wouldn't be allowed eternal salvation?

please, please, please learn your information and do not write statements that nullify each other, if just doesn't work, but thanks for trying, come back soon

[quote=jdawg]You claim to be a morally good person and you don't have to be a Christian to be one. Well let me ask you this question. By what standard are you comparing your morality to? In other words, who told you what is good or bad?[/quote] ok, well this was a good question. my parents have taught me over the years what is good and bad, what i should and should not do, and just personal experiences. not a fictional book.

[quote]The bible says "Do not steal". If someone steals from you, do you think that person is a good person or bad person? Your answer will show that you are using a moral standard that you got from somewhere. That moral standard is from God. So even if you don't believe in him, your act of trying to be a moral person shows me that you do believe in God or you would be running around like a wild animal killing people.[/quote] if someone stole from me, yeah i would think it was bad, stealing is a crime and you can be sentenced to jail. i got that moral standard from my parents and the law, once again, not a fictional book. just because i don't believe in god, doesn't mean i have to run around killing people, infact, most atheists are some of the most intelligent and well-mannered people on the face of the earth.

[quote]That brings me to this next point. In order to go to heaven, you need to be without sin, not even one. The commandments of the bible was NOT given to us to show us how to be good people. In fact the bible teaches that good people do not go to heaven. It actually was given to us to do the opposite, show us how we are not good people. And no matter how hard you try to be good, you will find yourself always failing. See for yourself. Take the moral test.[/quote] ok, sooooo in order to get into heaven, you can't sin. a lady came up to me in the park today, and asked me if i knew the 10 commandments, me, being knowledgeable, said yes. she asked what they were, i told her. she asked if i haved ever stolen anything, i said yeah, i stole a pack of gum when i was little kid, and i was punished. she asked if i haved ever looked at a girl and had a crush on a girl, i said yes, i had feelings for a girl at a time or another.
so, have you EVER stolen anything, anything at all that did not belong to you?
also, have you ever had feelings for a girl, at any point in your life?
if so, you have commited 2 sins, and by the point you have made, you are not allowed into heaven. sorry, but you are going to hell.
the bible doesn't teach you how to be good? are you honestly saying that? then what are the 10 commandments for? it is a guideline to tell you what NOT to do. stupidity i tell you, stupidity!

[quote]1) Have you ever stole before?[/quote] yes
[quote]2) Jesus said, if you even look at a woman and lust after her, you commit adultery. Have you ever committed adultery?[/quote] yes
[quote]3) Have you ever lied before?[/quote] yes
[quote]4) Have you ever be disobedient to your parents?[/quote] and yes

[quote]These are just a few. How did you do? If you are like me, you probably failed horribly. [/quote] i am pretty sure everyone did, so i guess no one is going to heaven since we have commited sin.

[quote]These are the standards of being a morally Good person according to the laws of God. How about if we try this same thing with the law of man. When you are on the freeway, you may have noticed the speed limit is 65. How many people do you see doing 65. Isn't it funny how everyone is going just a bit faster than 65. So if a cop pulls them over, he can say, “You were breaking the law, so I will have to give you a ticket.” If the speed limit sign was not posted, he will have no reason to give us a ticket.[/quote] well you see, there is a reason why your theory here does not work, it is law that there is a speeding ticket every certain number of feet or miles. but in a way, if there was no MPH sign, he can not in fact give us a ticket. but what is your point with this?

[quote]So it is with the commandments. If we did not have the commandments, we would not know we were breaking the laws of God. God expects us to be perfect but we cannot be perfect by following the commandment. This is a big problem. Why would God put this burden on us if He knew we cannot be perfect by following the commandment? The answer is quite simple. You see, there are a lot of people in this world that is going around saying, "I don't need God. I can be good without him!" So he gave us the commandments as guidelines to say, this is what perfection is. If you can do not only the 10 commandments but the 613 commandments, I will declare you to be a righteous person. He is hoping that we will come to our senses and say, "It is impossible to be perfect!"[/quote] i don't care if i break the laws of god, i don't believe in it. yeah, i know it is impossible to be perfect, so why do i need god to come to this understanding? exactly, i don't. and also, why would jesus tell us a religion that is impossible to abide by in many ways? it makes no sense, unless of course, it is way to live your life in a moral and just way. which, is what the bible, and christianity for that fact, are for.

[quote]If you came to that conclusion, then you will be able to start seeing his perfect plan to make you perfect. It is the plan he revealed from the time Adam and Eve missed the mark of perfection. He told them that they will have a son that will be their savior. And we know today that that savior is Jesus Christ. He is the only one that was able to obey all of the commandments without breaking one. So He was the only one that achieved perfection in the sight of God. And the greatest part of this is that He did it because we could not. He did it so that we won’t have to pay the penalty for our sins. He did it so that you don't have to try to be perfect only to find out that you cannot. He did it to show you how much God loves you. Jesus did this and said that if anyone believes that he paid the “ticket” for our sins, and all you have to do is believe and he will give you the payment receipt that your ticket has been paid in full. Do you believe?[/quote]ok, show me writing, i want to know everything jesus did from the moment he was born, to the moment he died, everywhere he went, every place he saw, everything. and not the bible, because that doesn't say anything. and how could one man, pay for a lifetime of sin commited by over than 10 billion (including dead and alive persons)? so no, i don't believe, i still see it as a self-help book. and how did jesus dying show me how much "god" loves me? it doesn't, it shows me that a man died for something he believed, which is cool and all, but kind of stupid when he could have lived a long life full of happiness instead of corrupting the whole world.

[quote]So is being a moral person easy? Absolutely! But only if you accept Christ.[/quote]i don't have to except christ to be sane, i am sane right now, i know more truth than most christians, read some philosophy books, please. geez, especially neitschze, i don't know if i spelled his name right.

[quote]By the way, this may not mean anything to you because you don't believe in God. I just whish you would prove first that there is not God before you dismiss Him. And don't repeat those lame examples you said earlier. Give me the hard evidence like Jesus gave me when he predicted he would die and be raise from the dead after 3 days. Now that is hard evidence! Do you have such evidence? Did you die, saw that there is no heaven, no hell, no God and now you are back to proclaim the truth? Who should I listen to, Jesus who claimed to be “The way, the truth and the life” or should I listen to you? Someone that is wet behind the ears and just started thinking about life and thinks he has it all figured out? Sorry, I think I will take my chances with Jesus and maybe you should to.[/quote]
the bible is written by god, there are fallacies in the bible, therefore the bible is not perfect, therefore god is not perfect.
unless of course, the bible is not the actual book of god, but a plan by the anti-christ.
how is that hard evidence, because it is proclaimed in an un-true book? were you alive 2000 years ago to see jesus himself raise from his grave? maybe a grave robber stole his body and someone else had a hallucination that they saw jesus, there is always the possibility, much more likely than being risen from the dead, if that were the case, he would be a zombie.
i just started to think about life? how old do you think i am? 2?
personally, i think you should believe me, because unlike jesus, i'm not telling you how to be a good person, i'm telling you how to be a good person while telling you the truth that you don't need to base your life of a 2000 year old lie.
sorry, i will take my chances with philosophy and atheism, it makes more sense and makes life 10 times easier, and i think you would enjoy that too.

thank you for a good argument, but next time, please come back with something better.