[quote]Yes, I understand. But I thought you were in the side that believes that once you're saved, you're always saved. Then you mentioned that my claiming to be a Christian was false, that's why I said that.[/quote]

I meant that obviously you were not truely saved to begin with because of the fact that once you gain salvation, you cannot lose it.

[quote]Yeah, I heard of the Trinity.

Why does there have to be three?[/quote]

Are you asking me why, if God is infinite, must there be three forms of him? If so, the answer is this: God the Father refers to God as the Creator, God the Son refers to God as he was on earth, and God the Spirit refers to God as he remains with us on earth.

[quote=tey]Are you asking me why, if God is infinite, must there be three forms of him? If so, the answer is this: God the Father refers to God as the Creator, God the Son refers to God as he was on earth, and God the Spirit refers to God as he remains with us on earth.[/quote]

I can't remember how long it was, but I remember asking in another forum this: "Who was God talking to in Genesis 1:3, when he said "Let there be light"?"

My guess is that he was talking to the Holy Spirit.

I was starting to think that God was going a little crazy.

Oh, and one more thing, Tey.

[quote]I meant that obviously you were not truely saved to begin with because of the fact that once you gain salvation, you cannot lose it.[/quote]

Let me ask you this. Do you think that you gained salvation now?

If so, what if you turn atheist later on? Was your claim to be Christian false the whole time?

Just because a Christian does something unpopular, you can't say "you're not a Christian!"

There are Christians that have gone to the war and killed some people. Would you still consider them to be Christians if they killed someone?

[quote]I can't remember how long it was, but I remember asking in another forum this: "Who was God talking to in Genesis 1:3, when he said "Let there be light"?"

My guess is that he was talking to the Holy Spirit.

I was starting to think that God was going a little crazy.[/quote]

... Who is to say that this is a direct address? God spoke the world into existence. My assumption is that this is more of putting an action into words not a direct address. BTW is this supposed to be an argument that they are seperate beings? If so:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

[quote]Let me ask you this. Do you think that you gained salvation now?

If so, what if you turn atheist later on? Was your claim to be Christian false the whole time?

Just because a Christian does something unpopular, you can't say "you're not a Christian!"

There are Christians that have gone to the war and killed some people. Would you still consider them to be Christians if they killed someone?[/quote]

If I did become an atheist, yes I would believe that I had a false hope in my Christian salvation.

It's not that you did something unpopular, hahaha, it's that you committed the unforgivable sin (aka rejecting God; which is blaspheming)!

BTW murder is not the unforgivable sin is it? Christians are held accountable for all sins they commit. But if they were TRUELY Christians to begin with, they will not lose their salvation.

If you need proof that you can't lose TRUE salvation in God, here you go:

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

You seem to be arguing this point as if you care about being called a Christian. Do you?

[quote]... Who is to say that this is a direct address? God spoke the world into existence. My assumption is that this is more of putting an action into words not a direct address. BTW is this supposed to be an argument that they are seperate beings? If so:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."[/quote]

*SIGH*

I was making a "Ohh, no wonder" joke, not an argument. :O

Stop trying to sound smart by whipping out Bible verses on an atheist. :D

yeah i was wondering if that was supposed to be an argument ... lol my mistake.

[quote=tey]It's not that you did something unpopular, hahaha, it's that you committed the unforgivable sin (aka rejecting God; which is blaspheming)![/quote]

You don't get what I mean by "unpopular".

But anyway, you agree that blaspheming is the unforgivable sin, but I'm not trying to start a debate about this...but why do some Christians believe that it's not the unforgivable sin?

Just give me your opinion, try not to use a Bible verse.

[quote]BTW murder is not the unforgivable sin is it? Christians are held accountable for all sins they commit. But if they were TRUELY Christians to begin with, they will not lose their salvation.[/quote]

There we have it, folks, a Christian can kill and not lose their salvation.

[quote]If you need proof that you can't lose TRUE salvation in God, here you go:

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."[/quote]

John 10:28 doesn't say "true salvation".

Galatians 5:4 says the opposite.

And the Bible is not proof of anything.

[quote]You seem to be arguing this point as if you care about being called a Christian. Do you?[/quote]

No, I just wanted to see what your thoughts were about a former Christian.

[quote=tey]yeah i was wondering if that was supposed to be an argument ... lol my mistake.[/quote]

Lol, it's ok, Tey. :-P

[quote]You don't get what I mean by "popular", oh well.

But anyway, you agree that blaspheming is the unforgivable sin, but I'm not trying to start a debate about this...but why do some Christians believe that it's not the unforgivable sin?

Just give me your opinion, try not to use a Bible verse.[/quote]

I'm not sure why they would. It's stated plain as day. Agreed?

[quote]There we have it, folks, a Christian can kill and not lose their salvation.[/quote]

You're forgetting the most important part ... you WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE SIN IN FRONT OF GOD IN HIS JUDGEMENT SEAT ... which is pretty harsh if you ask me. Believe if God questioned you about your sins in front of him you would be extremely ashamed.

[quote]John 10:28 doesn't say "true salvation".

Galatians 5:4 says the opposite.

And the Bible is not proof of anything.[/quote]

First, when arguing a biblical topic under Christianity ... the Bible does prove something. Kinda funny you would exclude the Bible in a biblical discussion don't you think?

Second the only way to Christ is true repentance and total belief and trust in him as your savior. Agreed? If you are in God's hand, that means you are saved. Once you are in God's hand, "no one can snatch them out of my hand." Get it now?

Galatians 5:4 isn't talking about those who are saved through the grace of Christ ... it's talking about people who believe they are saved through works of the law.

[quote=tey]I'm not sure why they would. It's stated plain as day. Agreed?[/quote]

Ask them.

Some guy said that we can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit, today.

[quote]You're forgetting the most important part ... you WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE SIN IN FRONT OF GOD IN HIS JUDGEMENT SEAT ... which is pretty harsh if you ask me. Believe if God questioned you about your sins in front of him you would be extremely ashamed.[/quote]

But with salvation, you're saved from harm, suffering and punishment from sin. So why does it matter?

[quote]First, when arguing a biblical topic under Christianity ... the Bible does prove something. Kinda funny you would exclude the Bible in a biblical discussion don't you think?[/quote]

In an atheist forum?

Christians come here to debate us, we don't ask them to.

Even it we had a Bible section, you wouldn't be proving anything with the Bible. We can just debate about certain things.

[quote]Second the only way to Christ is true repentance and total belief and trust in him as your savior. Agreed? If you are in God's hand, that means you are saved. Once you are in God's hand, "no one can snatch them out of my hand." Get it now?[/quote]

Of course, I've been knowing this years before you came to this forum. But I just want you to see this thing differently.

Listen, when someone is saved, nobody can be snatched out of God's hand.

So, if a Christian kills someone, what happened? Did he fall out of God's hand?

If not, how did he sin?

If he is punished, then he wasn't saved. Basically what I'm trying to ask you is, if someone is saved and kills someone, can they be punished for their sin? And if that person IS punished, what was the point of their salvation?

[quote]Galatians 5:4 isn't talking about those who are saved through the grace of Christ ... it's talking about people who believe they are saved through works of the law.[/quote]

And Jesus fulfilled the law. So you do have to follow, right?

[url=http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Bible_Studies/Sin_list_part_6.htm]So be careful[/url], my friend.

[quote]Ask them.

Some guy said that we can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit, today.[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that he said that it is physcally IMPOSSIBLE to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? Or do you mean that you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be saved?

[quote]But with salvation, you're saved from harm, suffering and punishment from sin. So why does it matter?[/quote]

You are saved from eternal damnation, yes. But you will still be held accountable for every sin. So, basically, it's not just a free ride through heaven's gates. God will still confront you about your sins.

[quote]In an atheist forum?

Christians come here to debate us, we don't ask them to.

Even it we had a Bible section, you wouldn't be proving anything with the Bible. We can just debate about certain things.[/quote]

Is it not impossible to debate with physical evidence whether or not you can lose your salvation? Since this is a BIBLICAL debate then the BIBLE is our only resource.

[quote]Of course, I've been knowing this years before you came to this forum. But I just want you to see this thing differently.

Listen, when someone is saved, nobody can be snatched out of God's hand.[/quote]

Yes, that's right.

[quote]So, if a Christian kills someone, what happened? Did he fall out of God's hand?[/quote]

No, they just sinned. Every Christian does it. No one, including Christians, is perfect, we all know that.

[quote]If not, how did he sin?[/quote]

What do you mean, how did he sin? It's part of the human nature. Christian or non Christian, everyone sins. Christians do not think they are perfect.

[quote]If he is punished, then he wasn't saved. Basically what I'm trying to ask you is, if someone is saved and kills someone, can they be punished for their sin? And if that person IS punished, what was the point of their salvation?[/quote]

No, that's not true. David, who is stated to have been a man after God's own heart, took another man's wife and had a son by her. He also had the husband of that women killed. Even though he repented, God made the child that David had illegitimately become ill and die. He was saved, and yet he was punished. So yes they can be punished for the sin. Salvation isn't a free ride that eliminates all consequences of your actions; however, it does save you from eternal damnation and death. Any questions?

[quote=tey]I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that he said that it is physcally IMPOSSIBLE to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? Or do you mean that you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be saved?[/quote]

Well, he just told me that nobody can blaspheme the Holy Spirit at all. Let's just move on.

[quote]Is it not impossible to debate with physical evidence whether or not you can lose your salvation? Since this is a BIBLICAL debate then the BIBLE is our only resource.[/quote]

Well, this essay was about faith. We both got a little off-topic, but if you want a biblical debate, then I guess there's no harm in it.

[quote]No, they just sinned. Every Christian does it. No one, including Christians, is perfect, we all know that.[/quote]

And if they sin, never repent (when they achieve salvation) how does God deal with it? Does he punish them or not?

[quote]What do you mean, how did he sin? It's part of the human nature. Christian or non Christian, everyone sins. Christians do not think they are perfect.[/quote]

I meant that if the Christian is in God's hand, then nothing can snatch him or her away. That means that they shouldn't have the ability to sin anymore, because if they sin, they must be punished in the afterlife. And what if someone that achieved salvation kills, steals, or does something bad, then a few minutes later, they die unexpectedly. What happens to them?

[quote]No, that's not true. David, who is stated to have been a man after God's own heart, took another man's wife and had a son by her. He also had the husband of that women killed. Even though he repented, God made the child that David had illegitimately become ill and die. He was saved, and yet he was punished. So yes they can be punished for the sin. Salvation isn't a free ride that eliminates all consequences of your actions; however, it does save you from eternal damnation and death. Any questions?[/quote]

Wait, but wasn't David punished when he was ALIVE?

[quote]And if they sin, never repent (when they achieve salvation) how does God deal with it? Does he punish them or not?[/quote]

You can't not repent and be saved. If they refuse to repent of their sins, then they were never a Christian to begin with. Therefore since, if they do not repent, then they are not saved, then I assume that yes, they will be punished.

[quote]I meant that if the Christian is in God's hand, then nothing can snatch him or her away. That means that they shouldn't have the ability to sin anymore, because if they sin, they must be punished in the afterlife. And what if someone that achieved salvation kills, steals, or does something bad, then a few minutes later, they die unexpectedly. What happens to them?[/quote]

No, it doesn't mean we don't have the ability to sin anymore. This would be a contradiction of the whole religion. If we lost our human nature to sin, then what would be the point of a Savior. We would be like God and therefore would be able to live without God. When the Bible states that nothing can snatch them out of my hand, it means they can't lose their salvation, not that they can't sin. And where in the Bible does it say you are automatically sent to hell if you sin? What do you think a Savior does? Everyone deserves hell for their sins, but God saves some of us from this eternal damnation.

If somewhat commits a sin and dies, if they were truely a Christian, then they will go to heaven. If they were not, then they got to hell. Simple as that.

[quote]Wait, but wasn't David punished when he was ALIVE?[/quote]

Yes, why does that matter, a punishment is a punishment. (Plus, when he dies, he will still be held accountable for that sin, like I've been saying)

[quote=tey]You can't not repent and be saved. If they refuse to repent of their sins, then they were never a Christian to begin with. Therefore since, if they do not repent, then they are not saved, then I assume that yes, they will be punished.[/quote]

I said it wrong, my bad.

I was trying to ask "what if they are saved, but sin, and don't repent."

But oh well, let's move on.

[quote]No, it doesn't mean we don't have the ability to sin anymore. This would be a contradiction of the whole religion. If we lost our human nature to sin, then what would be the point of a Savior.[/quote]

Jesus was basically God sacrificing himself to himself, so it's a contradiction anyway.

And god doesn't want us to sin, yet gave us the ability to. (I don't want to say freewill because not every Christian believes in freewill and I don't know if you do, or not.)

[quote]We would be like God and therefore would be able to live without God.[/quote]

If we were like God, everything would be perfect, just like he wanted it to be.

[quote]When the Bible states that nothing can snatch them out of my hand, it means they can't lose their salvation, not that they can't sin. And where in the Bible does it say you are automatically sent to hell if you sin? What do you think a Savior does? Everyone deserves hell for their sins, but God saves some of us from this eternal damnation.[/quote]

How about where it says that sinners go to hell?

So, nobody goes to hell or what?

[quote]If somewhat commits a sin and dies, if they were truely a Christian, then they will go to heaven. If they were not, then they got to hell. Simple as that.[/quote]

Oh my!

[quote]Yeah, I heard of the Trinity.

Why does there have to be three?[/quote]

3rd planet from the sun-(Earth)
3 branches of goverment (checks & balances)
3 strikes in baseball-(makes you out; 3 outs per inning)
3rd wheel at a date-(My Shopmore year)

But what's the harm in having just one?

The other 2 were added streghen the religion.

Jesus-Course the physical God(that no one has a statue or picture of from his lifetime) you spoke his word.

This made God and Jesus. Then in the councils that Rome would hold throught the Republic and Empire they made the [url=http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_trent]OT and NT[/url] along with [url=http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea]divinity of Jesus[/url]

The [url=http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_spirit]Holy Spirit[/url] is the "breath of God". He lives in us and guides us to be Christians... To late for a few of us, huh?

[quote=tey]I already read this from a website. This is the problem with his definition of faith: He writes it assuming that the existence of God is irrational. Why can't theistic faith being experiential?
[/quote]

You claimed you already read my post on another website, yet here you are asking a question that I answered in my post. I'll repeat it for you:

"Theistic faith is belief without justification. That's it. Period. End of story. And theistic faith must be belief without justification, as there is no way to justify a belief in the supernatural. This is precisely why theologians are diverse as Martin Luther and Soren Kierkegaard agree that a theist MUST begin with a leap of faith."

Supernatural claims involve putative 'entities' beyond nature. For this reason, induction, which is a natural process, cannot be used. Nothing natural can point to its very antithesis, something beyond nature.

For this reason, negative theologians have recognized for 16 centuries or more that there can be no positive claims about the supernatural

[quote]
Also the use of Romans is incorrect. This verse is stating the reason that God doesn't reveal everything to us: he wants us to earnestly seek him and hope (wait patiently) for our adoption as his sons.
[/quote]
I get this response all the time, and the humor in it is that you're proving my point: "god does not reveal everything to us"... i.e. we don't have evidence, so we must take it on faith.

To deny this is to commit the fallacy of begging the question... i.e. simply assuming that there is a god, when you've just conceded by your very answer that in this case, you don't have evidence, ergo you must 'seek him with hope' and be 'patient' that proof will come.

Think over your own response, and you'll see that you're agreeing with my usage of Romans.

- Todangst

[quote=noor]You also have faith that there are no fairies, right?[/quote]

I smell a burning strawman. :wink: